Real Flight and DirectX

Should Real Flight use the most current DirectX version?


  • Total voters
    24

jeffpn

Well-known member
I was disappointed to find out that RF6 will still be using DirectX9.0c that G3, G4 and G5 all used. According to what I researched today, DirectX9.0c was released in August of 2004, more than 7 years ago. KE used to keep up with DirectX releases. I remember the first AddOns discs having DirectX7 installation files, and DirectX8 on the later discs. Then after DirectX9.0c came out, KE stopped keeping up with it.

Windows Vista uses DirectX10, and Windows 7 uses DirectX11. It is a common misconception to new users that they don't need to install DirectX9.0c as prompted, thinking that having DirectX10 or 11 is sufficient. Microsoft dropped a couple files from DirectX when they released DirectX10. Real Flight requires those files that are no longer present in DirectX10 or 11. If you don't install DirectX9.0c from the RF disc, you will not have those files. RF will run poorly, or not at all.

I was also surprised to read Jim Bourke's post that RF6 will run slightly better than G5.5. That tells me that RF6 has been dumbed down. Is this about keeping Windows XP users happy? XP was released in October 2001, ten years ago! That's forever for a computer. It's time to leave XP users behind.

When I got G2, my computer did not run RF at all. I built a new one. When I bought G3, I wasn't satisfied with the performance of my G2 computer. I built another one. I also built one for G4. I did not build one for G5. Now it looks like I could go back to my G3 computer to run G6. I'm not saying that I think that RF should only run on the highest-end machines. But it should be noticeably different. There are so many graphics variables in RF that can be disabled to run RF on lower quality machines. Why is the new version of RF produced at the expense of eye candy? Is KE positioning itself to release RF on an iPad?

I have had my share of graphics issues starting with the release of G5.1. My machine would not start RF if it was in full screen mode. When a few others had similar problems, I played my part in KE's patch to address the issues. The fix that KE released isn't perfect. I can't export or import in full screen. There are other anomolies, too. I can't help but think that this has something to do with KE forcing an old version of DirectX to run on Vista or 7. Are there conflicts going on? I'm no programmer, I don't know. But it sure seems that way.

I would really like to see RF take advantage of the latest DirectX, and maybe even OpenGL. I know it's too late for RF6, but I'd like to see KE go this way in the future. How do you feel about it?
 
jeffpn said:
I was also surprised to read Jim Bourke's post that RF6 will run slightly better than G5.5. That tells me that RF6 has been dumbed down.

Certainly not "dumbed down", just some appropriate optimization.
 
Please don't take offense at my choice in terminology. I don't mean to insult your work. Obviously, I enjoy RF. By "dumbed down" what I meant is that it seems features were removed in order for cheap computers to run RF at a usable level. If the features remain, and performance is indeed optimized, I'm happy with that. I still wish RF would utilize DX11.
 
Reasons. I'd like to see reasons for why you voted the way you voted, yes or no. (Interesting I'm making a tweak for Mr. Always Against the Grain.) Tell me why!!
 
I agree with Jeff, GET OUT OF THE PAST and MOVE INTO THE FUTURE!!

We all replace / update our computers to keep up with the changing demands of programs. I will not change my two new compters to run RealFlight 6.

In a few weeks when I give my older computer to a friends daughter for school, I will also give her RealFlight 6 that I have on order from Tower Hobbies. I had many versions of RF since it came out.

When and if RF catches up with technology I will buy the latest version again.
 
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jeffpn said:
How do you feel about it?

Likely there are reasons other than technical why they haven't moved forward on DirectX. And I don't think we can expect them to disclose their reasoning or engage the user community in dialogue about it.

The discussion seems rather moot not knowing all the factors.

Regards
Michael
 
Luth, that's part of the reason I started this thread. If I didn't bring up the topic, they wouldn't answer. I know they still won't, but the squeaky wheel gets the grease, right?

Only one member has explained to me why he voted no, and that was via PM. I disagree with his reasoning, but I understand his view. Anyone else who voted no, save Adam, is just bucking the system, in my opinion. Until they explain why they voted no, that is.
 
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No we don't all replace and update regularly... the vast majority of people browse the internet and send e-mail... it does not take a game computer to do that. Have you looked around at the economy? Understand that I have a pretty serious gaming machine.

What feature of DirectX11 are you dieing to see implemented in the sim?
Myself, I would rather see KE stay in business... to do that, they need to keep the number of machines the software works with as large as possible. Vista and Win7 do not have a large penetration into the market yet.


jbull said:
I agree with Jeff, GET OUT OF THE PAST and MOVE INTO THE FUTURE!!

We all replace / update our computers to keep up with the changing demands of programs, I will not change my two new compters to run a program.

In a few weeks when I give my older computer to a friends daughter for school I will also give her RF6 that I have on order from Tower Hobbies. I had many versions of RF since it came out.

When and if RF catches up with technology I will buy the latest version again.
 
should they ...yes
personally , am I glad the did not ...........yes !

I can afford the upgrade but at this time the extra $200 or so to buy 7 would make doing the upgrade to expensive for me right now
as it is I'm going to spend 100 or more fixing my other PC purely because I want 6 to run nicely
 
Where's your data? I'll have to see if I can find numbers later.
12oclockhigh said:
Vista and Win7 do not have a large penetration into the market yet.
Like I explained earlier, in my initial post and in PM, I think there may be a conflict between the native DX11 and the old DX9 files RF is forcing to run.
 
I disagree 12.......no one has sold a new pc in at least 3 years (probably more) that had XP as its OS
they've all been loaded with Vista or 7 ............thats not even counting folks who upgraded to either of those 2 OSs on their own on there "old" XP machines
 
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There is an aspect I have overlooked here. Having Windows 7 does not mean having DX11 working on your machine. My video card is actually only DX10 compliant. I would have to upgrade it to benefit from DX11. However, my card is over 4 years old. Why is the software written to hardware that's even older than that?

Personally, if KE wrote RF to be DX11 compliant, I would buy a new video card. I get that most people wouldn't want to do that. DX10 has been around for several years already. Why can't RF use at least DX10?
 
https://forums.realflight.com/showthread.php?t=21928&highlight=Invalid+call This thread might shed some light on the problems that occurred when KE moved on to G4.5 and discovered that someone (MS) had for some reason had changed all the rules for software companies still building on DX9 in the middle of the game. They dropped support and inclusion of a few key files that KE was using in all future DX builds. They had to quickly come up with a way to maintain support for the DX10 and DX11 users. There simply was not enough time to do a rewrite at that time to maintain support for the newer systems. The quick fix was to somehow include helper files from the previous DX9 builds (the unsupported files) back into our computers to keep us going. They've done a pretty good job of keeping us running under these conditions for three years but IMO it's way past time to fix the problem. If it takes a complete rewrite to get it done for us to move on, I'm all for it. I think a lot more could be done with a lot less overhead with a completely new piece of software that included the best of this one. People should be dropping off the back end, not the front.
 
I can understand the frustration better now... having read the mentioned thread.

Still one question: What capability are we missing with the current version?
 
The ability to start RF in full screen without anomalies, for me. I suspect the ability to import/export in full screen. My whole point is that RF seems buggy from a DirectX standpoint, and I have to wonder if it has to do with RF sneaking the discontinued Dx9 files in the back door.

As for the rest of the answer, you could compare the differences between DX9 and DX10/11.
 
Before someone flames me for pointing this out, my frustration is not with KE, I know they can do it, it's with Hobbico for their apparent lack of funding to fix it. At this point i'm not %100 sure that my machine is still DX9, DX10 OR DX11 compliant, it's a hybrid.
 
I would at least like to see RF moved to DX10.

DX9 just has far too many problems... case in point the texture decompression issues which are - STILL - plaguing us after all of this time! :eek: :eek: :eek:

For backward compatibility, the DX version used in the last TWO operating systems could be kept around, but beyond that there is no point.

Other sims once touted as being "more compatible" with old machines have already made the transition, so the often heard complaint about:

"Well XXXX sim still runs on my 12 year old Compaq laptop ( luggable )"

no longer is of consequence....


OpenGL 3.x compatibility for cross porting would be cool, but we are unlikely to see that.... ( though another not to be named sim did this too... and the 3D results are impressive ).

-----

DirectX9 was released in 2002

So it is 72 years old in dog years.

Pretty old for a mutt!
 
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I want to clear up a couple small misconceptions.

The reason RealFlight needs to install some extra DirectX9 files is not because we're relying on old functionality that Microsoft has since removed. Rather, the core DX9 installation contains the stuff that most apps need, and probably hasn't changed much over time except for fixes and updates to the pieces that are already in there. In addition to that core functionality, DirectX provides additional but completely optional functionality that is available to those who want to use it. Microsoft leaves it up to the developer to distribute those extra helper components if they choose to use them. This is more specialized functionality that is typically only useful to games and similar types of software. We do use pieces of that extra functionality, so we must include those helper .DLLs in our installation.

The cause of most (if not all) fullscreen issues is not the fact that RealFlight uses DX9 vs. DX10 or 11. The issue is fullscreen compatibility with Windows' MFC menus and dialogs. Fullscreen mode is basically intended to be used by games, and MFC simply isn't designed with that mode in mind. We do some contortions to make it all work, but it isn't perfect. That's one reason for the Gadget Tabs UI, which includes the airport & aircraft QuickSelect dialogs and is non-MFC.

I hope this helps.
 
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