Custom Heli won't lift off in RF 6

C

compasst

New member
The custom heli 'E-trainer' that worked fine in my RF 3.5 will not lift off in RF 6. I'm not experienced enough to know how to apply the sticky notes about the changes in physics and how this affects custom models. Any suggestions?

Anybody know of a good training heli with trainer landing gear that I can use in RF 6?
 
Don't get too hung up on training gear in RF6. It won't hurt the helicopter if you crash it. A push of the reset button, and you're back in business. Then when you are very comfortable with the sim helis, you'll be more omfortable with your real one. There is a stock trainer in RF. I think it's called an Impala.
 
Just pick out the biggest heli you can find and fly and crash until you get the hang of it. Crashes are free. After you get a feel for it pick a smaller one and work your way down. The smaller they are the harder they are to fly. It doesn't need to be any particular brand name, it doesn't even need to be pretty. It just needs to be a collective pitch heli. It's going to be pretty hard at first but if you are determined, you'll get it.
 
compasst said:
The custom heli 'E-trainer' that worked fine in my RF 3.5 will not lift off in RF 6. I'm not experienced enough to know how to apply the sticky notes about the changes in physics and how this affects custom models. Any suggestions?

Anybody know of a good training heli with trainer landing gear that I can use in RF 6?
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Because it's a custom heli, chances are the physics got messed up after importing into 6. Does the rotor actually spin? What RPM is the rotor spinning at when looking at the NavGuides?

I had a similar issue with the Ericson Sky Crane I'm working on and found the engine to rotor ratio increased from the set ratio of 52 (around this number) to around 152. My main rotor needed to be rotating around 800 something RPM, but was only spinning around 200 if I remember correctly. It's an easy change in the physics.
 
jeffpn said:
Don't get too hung up on training gear in RF6. It won't hurt the helicopter if you crash it. A push of the reset button, and you're back in business. Then when you are very comfortable with the sim helis, you'll be more omfortable with your real one. There is a stock trainer in RF. I think it's called an Impala.
Click to expand...

I find the ease with which a sim model crashes to be distracting and not helping me to learn. Yes, I can crash and crash without any expense to my pocket, but the real learning comes from saving one from a crash - and learning how to do that. The training gear serves this purpose in real life - and could in a simulator as well, in my opinion and also in my experience prior to RF 6. I'd rather bounce around a couple of times while I correct my inputs than to have to re-start from scratch and wonder how I got in trouble and how I'd get out of it. Maybe my experience in training pilots in real aircraft is weighing in too heavily in this simulator world... going to the edge and then coming back in one piece is worth more than a crash.
 
That variant is an electric based on the stock impala trainer in RF6 HMP.
You should still be able to use it with the plain vanilla trainer. :confused:
 
I'd compare the training gear to putting buoys over the railing of a boat when you're docking. The goal is not to bang into the dock, but they are there to protect you just in case you do. I get your recovering from bouncing around thing, but you can do that without the training gear in the sim. I am not recommending against training gear in real life. It is my opinion that if you can fly a heli in the sim without training gear that you'll do much better for real with it.
 
Let me give you some advice that if someone had given me when I got started would have saved me hundreds of dollars. Helis with a tailrotor want to go left. The only way you can stop that is to lean the heli to the right. It's sitting there level on the ground just waiting to go left as soon as it gets light on the skids. So just as it's lifting off give it just a little right stick with the right stick. That will get it leaning right and not traveling left. Get it up three or four feet so it's not thrashing around in it's own turbulence caused by the ground. Now you have a much better chance of being able to hold it's position. You never ever, training gear or not, want your heli to slide left on the ground. If it slides a quarter inch start over, you didn't do it right. Training gear actually makes it more difficult to get that right lean thing going on as you lift off. That's rule number one.
 
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Sorry, but I could not disagree more with you. To me the training gear is a crutch that will last long after you think you are ready to fly. Learn to fly in the sim exclusively... when you can hover for an entire battery pack you might be ready (a couple of months depending on your ability)...I left the sim and NEVER put any training gear on the bird. Also google Radds School of Rotary flight. I don't think you can really compare GA to RC... in the same rhelm, but not the same country. I fly GA and you should listen to an RC heli instructor... not develop your own training ideas.

compasst said:
I find the ease with which a sim model crashes to be distracting and not helping me to learn. Yes, I can crash and crash without any expense to my pocket, but the real learning comes from saving one from a crash - and learning how to do that. The training gear serves this purpose in real life - and could in a simulator as well, in my opinion and also in my experience prior to RF 6. I'd rather bounce around a couple of times while I correct my inputs than to have to re-start from scratch and wonder how I got in trouble and how I'd get out of it. Maybe my experience in training pilots in real aircraft is weighing in too heavily in this simulator world... going to the edge and then coming back in one piece is worth more than a crash.
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compasst said:
I find the ease with which a sim model crashes to be distracting and not helping me to learn. Yes, I can crash and crash without any expense to my pocket, but the real learning comes from saving one from a crash - and learning how to do that. The training gear serves this purpose in real life - and could in a simulator as well, in my opinion and also in my experience prior to RF 6. I'd rather bounce around a couple of times while I correct my inputs than to have to re-start from scratch and wonder how I got in trouble and how I'd get out of it. Maybe my experience in training pilots in real aircraft is weighing in too heavily in this simulator world... going to the edge and then coming back in one piece is worth more than a crash.
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I used training gear twice in my early days and I say don't use it. The problem with training gear is once you begin to transition to forward flight, you are still flying inches off the ground--at least I did. When you fly your RC heli just inches from the ground with training gear, you run the risk of catching the tips of the gear on the ground and causing the blades to tilt into the pavement or the grass.

My training gear issue happened with the grass at the edge of a basketball court and luckily I only needed to replace the blades, main shaft, feathering shaft, flybar, flybar cradle, canopy and the main gear. This was the typical easy to break stuff on the Esky Belt CP, which is what I learned on. I vowed never to use training gear again and within two weeks, after the repair, I was flying in fast forward flight 20 feet above the ground and doing 540 Stall turns. A few weeks later I got FMS (my first simulator) and the Esky USB simulator controller and learned nose-in hovering.

In the end, it's your decision on how you are most comfortable to learn. I wanted to learn the hard way without a sim as the crutch. I feel I'm a much better and more natural learning RC pilot because of doing things this way.
 
12oclockhigh said:
Sorry, but I could not disagree more with you. To me the training gear is a crutch that will last long after you think you are ready to fly. Learn to fly in the sim exclusively... when you can hover for an entire battery pack you might be ready (a couple of months depending on your ability)...I left the sim and NEVER put any training gear on the bird. Also google Radds School of Rotary flight. I don't think you can really compare GA to RC... in the same rhelm, but not the same country. I fly GA and you should listen to an RC heli instructor... not develop your own training ideas.
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To go along with what 12oclockhigh said, I learned how to fly by practicing in my head and reading articles and having an RCHelimag subscription. Even with nose in hovering, I did most of it in the field by flying circuits 20 feet up. My PC at the time when I started learning to fly RC Heli's had a difficult time with FMS and helisimRC. I would start to slow down and fly towards myself while wiggling the sticks slightly to get used to the feel of counteracting directional changes nose in. I always knew how to get back to a clockwise circle to regain tail orientation.

In fact, most of my sim training involved getting the heli up high then I'd close my eyes to lose orientation. I would open my eyes and try to correct myself before crashing. Any of my friends that fly with me at the field will tell you that I have about the fastest reaction time they know of. I didn't have Realflight until two years after I was flying RC heli's. I don't think I would fly the same way in the real world if I started on a sim.
 
compasst said:
I find the ease with which a sim model crashes to be distracting and not helping me to learn. Yes, I can crash and crash without any expense to my pocket, but the real learning comes from saving one from a crash - and learning how to do that. The training gear serves this purpose in real life - and could in a simulator as well, in my opinion and also in my experience prior to RF 6. I'd rather bounce around a couple of times while I correct my inputs than to have to re-start from scratch and wonder how I got in trouble and how I'd get out of it. Maybe my experience in training pilots in real aircraft is weighing in too heavily in this simulator world... going to the edge and then coming back in one piece is worth more than a crash.
Click to expand...

In RF6 you can rewind right to before you lost control and try again... no need for training gear. :eek:
 
12oclockhigh said:
Sorry, but I could not disagree more with you. To me the training gear is a crutch that will last long after you think you are ready to fly. Learn to fly in the sim exclusively... when you can hover for an entire battery pack you might be ready (a couple of months depending on your ability)...I left the sim and NEVER put any training gear on the bird. Also google Radds School of Rotary flight. I don't think you can really compare GA to RC... in the same rhelm, but not the same country. I fly GA and you should listen to an RC heli instructor... not develop your own training ideas.
Click to expand...

The use of the word 'crutch' with a negative connotation is ironic - for it is exactly the use of a crutch that allows one with an artificial joint replacement, for example, to get stronger and eventually stop using the crutch(es). Use of crutches does not cause one to learn to walk incorrectly - rather one gains strength to walk correctly. The proper use of any 'crutch' will speed the learning process and allow the user to properly develop the correct behavior.

I appreciate your suggestion to use the sim more extensively. I'm not trying to train myself and develop my own techniques - rather, I am searching for ones that make sense and work for me. Opinions abound - I'm reading them all and incorporating nuggets into my training/learning process.
 
td9cowboy said:
Let me give you some advice that if someone had given me when I got started would have saved me hundreds of dollars. Helis with a tailrotor want to go left. The only way you can stop that is to lean the heli to the right. It's sitting there level on the ground just waiting to go left as soon as it gets light on the skids. So just as it's lifting off give it just a little right stick with the right stick. That will get it leaning right and not traveling left. Get it up three or four feet so it's not thrashing around in it's own turbulence caused by the ground. Now you have a much better chance of being able to hold it's position. You never ever, training gear or not, want your heli to slide left on the ground. If it slides a quarter inch start over, you didn't do it right. Training gear actually makes it more difficult to get that right lean thing going on as you lift off. That's rule number one.
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This single piece of advice is the most significant piece I have received. It makes total sense to my physics-based mind, and works perfectly for me. None of the books and forums that I have read have mentioned this!

I've discovered that the more time I spend spooling up and anticipating liftoff, the more difficult it is to avoid the left drift upon liftoff. Can't tell you how many frustrating hours I spent at the field with left-drifting liftoffs. The sim does not sufficiently do this, in my opinion. I just figured the models were out of adjustment or some other flaw. Putting in a little right stick on liftoff is the answer - thanks!
 
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Glad I could help. When I started, I was flying helis alone with no help from others. I struggled through it but I try to offer up this little tid bit when I find someone in need. I bet most pilots forget that they even do it and will tell it's nonsense, but they're doing it. ;) One point I might add. Once you are able to maintain a stable hover, trim it so it will not try to constantly in any other direction than left. It can be trimmed right for a hands off hover of short duration. There are two schools of thought about trimming for hands free. Some say it will bite you down the road as your flying progresses to inverted. You might want to do a search on helifreak and read up on the details of the debate. Mine will hover hands off briefly without any problems for sport flying. Regardless of how you trim it, you still need to get it leaning right on the way up on your own.

Think about this, with training gear on, how are you going to get that right lean going on with those big sticks projecting out so far. You're already going left before you get enough altitude to lean it. You'll like it a lot better once you get the confidence to remove them. Do not use them in the sim.
 
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Well then pick another word, but relying on training gear is a mental mistake in my opinion. If you create a mental need to have them, you will not want to fly without them. Again, I say Google "Radds School of Rotary Flight". He has a program all designed that works. No wheel to reinvent. Hate to say it (Because I am a GA pilot too) but all your GA experience is WORTHLESS in RC. If you think you know it all, you will not succeed. The two skills are not equivalent no matter what you think now. I do think one enhances the other, but they are very different. You listened to the CFI, now listen to the experience in this world and don't fight what people are telling you.

In the early days of RC helicopter flight (You know BS ...before simulators) they had no choice but to use the training gear. The sim is a replacement for training gear and a far superior one at that. Don't equate red button = Bad. Who care how many times you crash. Even now when I am practicing, I crash. Far better to have the crash on the sim than in metal, plastic and carbon fiber. I won't tell anyone you have crashed if you don't tell on me. As you progress, you will see the crashes diminish... I can fly all day and night without crashing, it is when I am trying new stuff and the timing is off. Many dumps I can now fly out of.

compasst said:
The use of the word 'crutch' with a negative connotation is ironic - for it is exactly the use of a crutch that allows one with an artificial joint replacement, for example, to get stronger and eventually stop using the crutch(es). Use of crutches does not cause one to learn to walk incorrectly - rather one gains strength to walk correctly. The proper use of any 'crutch' will speed the learning process and allow the user to properly develop the correct behavior.

I appreciate your suggestion to use the sim more extensively. I'm not trying to train myself and develop my own techniques - rather, I am searching for ones that make sense and work for me. Opinions abound - I'm reading them all and incorporating nuggets into my training/learning process.
Click to expand...
 
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We've got this great old guy at the field that has been training new pilots for decades. He says that his worst students are always full scale pilots. They get into RC thinking that they already know how to fly so RC should be pretty easy. They kind of need an attitude adjustment and then some flight training. Flying the aircraft from the ground pretty much changes everything.
 
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