Got r6 in time for Christmas yay!

[Leyline]

So, I absolutely don't want this to turn into a love / hate or flame thread, but I was doing a lot of reading on the forums as I awaited my r6 to come in... and got worried about the heli performance in 6, (why would I upgrade if 3.5 was the heli version of choice) so on and so forth.

I am glad though that 3.5 and 6 run side by side, I am usually a stickler for upgrading and not looking back, I was fearing wanting to jump between the 2 versions, to 3.5 to heli, to 6 to play multi, etc... While I don't hate the heli's in 6, I definitely feel they fly much more easily than 3.5 did...

I will put a few things out here, not as flame fuel, but I am a newb, I am sim raised as I cannot afford heli's as an RL hobby... I wish I could say that one is really better compared to RL, but I can't. I can say they are definitely different.

I just wanted to try to give my basic view, some things that someone else might pick up on and be able to define, and if some helpful suggestions to help me fine tune my r6 experience, even a "well, since 3 came out heli models have gotten so much better they ARE easier to fly IRL" would be cool.

I haven't flown anything IRL more than a couple sub $100 electrics, and those all stunk.

I do notice in 6, the Heli's seem as people say "floaty", it's like everything I flew in 3.5 is twice as powerful, and the heli just seems to point and stick, and in slow flight they don't fall off and drift like they did in 3....

So I spent about 6 hours going back and forth between 3.5 and 6(.27) trying different heli's, touring 6 a bit, and then spending about 3 hours just back and forth in the dominion 3d 90.

In 3.5 it seems if I pop up and down, the blades seem to flex, and you can hear them "feathering" as the heli peaks out changing direction, and the engine bogs a decent amount as you push up/down.

In 6, it's like the blades are perfectly rigid, and the engine has so much power, it's like flying a furion 450 (instead of he dom 90) just such instant rapid response... and I never hear or feel the change of direction as much.
It feels like I can travel the same up/down distance in 6, twice as many times.
(like say 3*sin(4x) as opposed to 3*sin(2x))

I don't know if the dominion has been upgraded so much, better gyro's, better engine, stiffer blades, but the dominion in r6, seems like such a beast compared to the same in 3.5

in 3.5 when I would hover just slightly say a foot off the ground, the heli would drift, I could never trim it out and just let it go in a line, it would always eventually arc to one side or the other.
If I set it in a slow forward hover, and then spun the tail, the heli seemed nose heavy and would follow the nose and I could steer slowly around without changing the main rotor pitch.

In r6 the heli seems so stable that I can set the heli on a drift and spin around with the tail rotor, and it is like the heli has no mass or inertia except what is perfectly centered at the rotor head. The disc never wobbles or drifts, no matter where the nose/tail face as the heli moves, it just feels like the heli is flying on rails at this point...

This may be some of the things people have been feeling.

Also, I notice (using my interlink from v3) that in 6, the rates are much higher, I can spin the dominion's tail around MUCH faster than I could in 3, double rates on or off, and it seems that the thrust in 6, is not as affected by the double rate throw as it was in 3, in 3, I could tell at liftoff if I was in x2 or not by the thrust in 6, I can only tell by the rate I can spin the tail around.

Thanks for listening guys, hope to catch some of you on multiplayer sometime and observe some better flying than I come up with on my own

 

[phrank]

Well, I'll be first...
Congrats on your upgrade, and a very merry christmas.
KE spent a lot of time this year working on Heli Physics, so, they better have got it right.
They went as far as getting some professional sponsored pilots to say some really nice things about it.
Even Mikey seems to have changed his tune about criticizm of RF6 with the .027 upgrade, we can all breathe a sigh of relief on that.
He better, otherwise his upcoming Trex700 Physics would be in conflict.

One sticking point right now is on the plank side with the propwash discussion.
Felix ain't too happy.

 

[alexvan]

I really agree with you on the "floaty" effect. It's totally unrealistic! I'm flying with the Gaui X5. In general terms the behavior is likely. But the air density is totally unrealistic. If I start a forward flying from hovering without changing the pitch, the hely goes down! A real hely goes up given the translational lift. If the I level the forward motion return to hovering then the hely starts to climb! A real hely in this situation has to stall!

The same behaviour is present also in RF5.5 and Phoenix. Is it so difficult to be implemented?

 

[jeffpn]

The same behaviour is present also in RF5.5 and Phoenix. Is it so difficult to be implemented?

This isn't Bewitched. No nose twitches here to fix everything.

 

[Leyline]

Can anyone speak to how much more powerful the dominion 3d 90 feels in r6, vs 3.5?

Is the propwash you speak of affecting how in 3.5 if feels like the blades are less stiff and when you really push a direction change you can feel, and hear the feathering sound.... like when you bridge a deck of cards after shuffle and let the cards all slide back in from a bent arch?

 

[opjose]

Can anyone speak to how much more powerful the dominion 3d 90 feels in r6, vs 3.5?

Is it relevant to ANYTHING?

The Dominion 3D is a FANTASY heli that has characteristics much like a powerful 3D heli.

If you've seen well set up 90's and larger helis fly in the hands of expert pilots, you'll find that the Dominion behaves the same way.

Is the propwash you speak of affecting how in 3.5 if feels like the blades are less stiff and when you really push a direction change you can feel, and hear the feathering sound.... like when you bridge a deck of cards after shuffle and let the cards all slide back in from a bent arch?

PROP WASH is something that affects the planks more than helis.

With helis we worry about vortex rings, etc... but PROPWASH? Eh, no.

As far as "stiffness" you DO realize that you can easily adjust the amount of movement in the blades with a simple edit right?

If you want them buzzing around like they are made of pasta, you can do that or you can make them stiffer than Unobtainium.... either way it's not a big deal.

 

[Leyline]

I would like to continue, by saying thank you to everyone who is offering input, as a newbie, it is great to learn and understand. I am not here to challenge anyone, and having a small discussion is a great way to understand things.


This rest of this post is basically a response to opjose:

I did start this thread by saying I am a newbie, and I asked if propwash was the correct term...

I have been reading a lot on the forums, so I know you can edit (almost) all the things...
However, I am not going around editing the planes/heli's because I am not experienced enough, and I don't want to really break them... (have them stray from what they were designed for)

I know the dominion is a fictional heli, but I was asking if anyone noticed how different it is in r6, than r3.5, and noting a few of my observations about it. Because I wanted a quantative evaluation of what I observed, not just "I feel / I like 3.5 / 6"

My question about that difference is relevant, because as I am learning to fly, and I have seen a lot of controversy over the r6 release.... I am wondering if I should trust the feel and response of r3.5 over r6.

I am trying to really learn on the sim, as I decide what I might like to buy, / train harder so I can buy something nicer, and save up to afford what might be a good heli for me.
My house is small and I have no shed/garage, and 2 kids that will need to split from the nursery to their own rooms (out of a 3vr house) so the bicycles will go out back under a tarp, and I will have still, have no hobby area.
So the start big and work to small, well I am doing it in the Sim.


Instead of re-igniting the 3.5 / r6 what do you like better fire,

I am just asking a direct and definitive question, "is the dominion in r6 modified a lot from 3.5 so that it flies with SO much more authority now.... or is it the 3.5/6 physics that I am seeing in play here"

I picked a specific heli that I fly alot in 3.5. I am now decent at hovering / smooth flight, inversion and well I can go crazy and still bring the thing in to land... I am still trying to learn actual 3d tricks with, and in r6 it just seems to be so much easier to fly...

Whenever I join multiplayer sessions, and I see good heli pilots doing some really nice stuff, I ask why they are on 3.5 instead of over on 6, and they tell me "3.5" is king for helis. don't trust r6"

I felt more at ease when Mikey gave .27 a nod of approval, but I still get alot of strong opinions elsewhere. (And I have never seen Mikey fly or chatted with him, I am just going by the respect he seems to garner on the forums)

I want to have faith in r6, I like to move forward, I like to believe my upgrade was the right thing to do, (not accounting money, but what will actually be training me correctly)

I do not want to start getting really used to the r6 feel of heli's and find out the hard way (crashing a model) that 3.5 was what I should have been expecting.

A lot of the opinions are "they feel floaty" or "they feel wrong" or "some experts like 3.5 or 6".
I am trying to nail something down to make a quantative assessment on my own. I know they "feel" a lot different, but if there are direct reasons, then I would absolutely love to understand them.

(And I also thought about going through the editors in both, but I really would not know if the values were revelant across versions, as apparently if someone built a custom model in 3.5 I have been reading there are several adjustments to make it
fly properly in 6. How could I go through and know what should match, what has been changed to make it fly in r6, and what just changed to make it a stronger bird... ? I would not be able to tell, I'm no rc physics guru.)

 

[Maj. Numbskully]

I have been reading a lot on the forums, so I know you can edit (almost) all the things...
However, I am not going around editing the planes/heli's because I am not experienced enough, and I don't want to really break them... (have them stray from what they were designed for)

No worries if you do this:
Any time you begin to edit a Swap Page Aircraft be it an AV or EA always "Save As" with a new name FIRST and you'll never "Break" the original file ("Save As" creates a new AV)
when editing a stock Aircraft RF Forces you to do the same

I always Save As first because sometimes you get so involved in editing that you forget to save as when you're done and then inadvertently break the original file

The best way to learn the Editor is to dive right in ...make a mistake that you can't correct (not likely)....delete the AV Using "Manage User Files" and start again !

After you edit the new AV it will be listed in your aircraft menu as a new version of the Aircraft you edited with the new name you gave it leaving the original un-effected by the new changes

 

[Leyline]

Thanks!
For now, I am really trying to learn to fly, I figured if I get a model that differs from something already in the system, I would try to research editing the sim to match RL.

But that's a good tip to make a copy first, like you said, I could see myself going SAVE! Opps I meant SAVE AS!

 

[Maj. Numbskully]

lol .......ask me how I learned that Lesson

 

[opjose]

However, I am not going around editing the planes/heli's because I am not experienced enough, and I don't want to really break them... (have them stray from what they were designed for)

You can't "break" anything... the edits can only be done to NEW AV files you effectively create. Try it and see.

I know the dominion is a fictional heli, but I was asking if anyone noticed how different it is in r6, than r3.5, and noting a few of my observations about it. Because I wanted a quantative evaluation of what I observed, not just "I feel / I like 3.5 / 6"

How do you get a "quantative evaluation" of a fictional device?

My question about that difference is relevant, because as I am learning to fly, and I have seen a lot of controversy over the r6 release.... I am wondering if I should trust the feel and response of r3.5 over r6.

No it's really NOT relevant on a fictional heli.

You seem to be trying to ask "which is most realistic".

The answer is BOTH depending upon what you want emulated?

The "controversy" on the R6 release has little to do with heli physics and almost everything to do with wing lift.

Wing lift modeling was IMPROVED in G6 and is far more accurate.

However this made some helis seem overpowered or extra responsive.

That is not "inaccurate", rather it is how the helis are designed by the person who did the physics.

You can change the airfoil of the blades to affect the amount of "lift" they produce, just like with planes.

I am trying to really learn on the sim, as I decide what I might like to buy, / train harder so I can buy something nicer, and save up to afford what might be a good heli for me.

While the Sim is an EXCELLENT training tool, DO NOT make the assumption that because you can fly a heli FLAWLESSLY in the sim, you can handle something OTHER than a beginner's heli.

BIG MISTAKE!

Your "nicer" heli should be something that you can adecuately train with, and have cheap replacement parts available because YOU WILL break things.

Don't assume you can skip some steps because of the sim... you can't... however the amount of time it will take you to learn is reduced...

So the start big and work to small, well I am doing it in the Sim.

That's the best way to do it both in the Sim and in real life, though few do the latter.

I am just asking a direct and definitive question, "is the dominion in r6 modified a lot from 3.5 so that it flies with SO much more authority now.... or is it the 3.5/6 physics that I am seeing in play here"

The question makes no sense particularly since you are talking about a FICTIONAL heli.

If you were comparing a real heli to an identical model in the sim, you would still get a variable response.

Some might like RF3.5 because they assume it is more accurate ( they are wrong ) if they see higher power in RF6, etc... but RF6.0's modeling is better, and you can get a modeled heli to behave more like the real thing.

The problem is that doing the latter is an interative process...

You fly the real thing, then fly the sim through a series of fixed tests...

You note where things differ and adjust the sim accordingly...

So to get accurate "modeling" ( the physics are already good, we are not talking about the sim's PHYSICS per-se, but rather how well the model creator adjusted their emulated heli... ) you adjust the sim to behave like the real world device.

That means you have to have the real heli, AND know how to do modeling in the editor correctly and run through testing...

Some of the modeled helis are uncanny in their accuracy because those involved met those requirements.

I picked a specific heli that I fly alot in 3.5. I am now decent at hovering / smooth flight, inversion and well I can go crazy and still bring the thing in to land... I am still trying to learn actual 3d tricks with, and in r6 it just seems to be so much easier to fly...

Larger helis are.

Whenever I join multiplayer sessions, and I see good heli pilots doing some really nice stuff, I ask why they are on 3.5 instead of over on 6, and they tell me "3.5" is king for helis. don't trust r6"

Every time a new version comes out and something changes in the physics we get the same response...

Then once the models are adjusted, people never go back.... but the banter continues for awhile...

I felt more at ease when Mikey gave .27 a nod of approval, but I still get alot of strong opinions elsewhere. (And I have never seen Mikey fly or chatted with him, I am just going by the respect he seems to garner on the forums)

Most of those "opinions" are due to first blushes with the sim, particularly with older tried and true models that have not been adjusted for RF6.

I want to have faith in r6, I like to move forward, I like to believe my upgrade was the right thing to do, (not accounting money, but what will actually be training me correctly)

The sim WILL NOT "TRAIN" you... an instructor may help you learn, and the sim does cut down on the amount of time it takes you to learn.

You WILL have to fly a heli to learn, preferably a suitable training heli.

I do not want to start getting really used to the r6 feel of heli's and find out the hard way (crashing a model) that 3.5 was what I should have been expecting.

Again irrelevant...

You can't go by the sim alone.... nor can you go by a fictional model.

You use the sim to acquire "muscle memory" then you go out and try to fly the real thing and LEARN that the sim was only a beginning, and it does/did not prepare you for a lot of things you will see.

The sim is merely a good "tool", but not an end unto itself for training.

I am trying to nail something down to make a quantative assessment on my own. I know they "feel" a lot different, but if there are direct reasons, then I would absolutely love to understand them.

As a beginner you cannot make such an assessment.

You need to have a LOT of experience with a particular heli and a particular model in the sim to be able to compare and contrast any differences.

Then an understanding of the editor helps you to eliminate any perceived differences so you'll be as close as you possibly can in the emulation.

That's one thing RF has over all the other sims... if something is not quite right you can tweak or adjust it until it is almost perfect.

But a perfect emulation is NOT going to prepare you for your first even fixed pitch heli take off.... you'll be taken by surprise no matter what.

Fly properly in 6. How could I go through and know what should match, what has been changed to make it fly in r6, and what just changed to make it a stronger bird... ? I would not be able to tell, I'm no rc physics guru.)

So your best bet is to go with AV's or models created by someone who both owns the real thing and knows the RF editor VERY well....

The pre-defined models in the sim are accurate in their own right, but you cannot compare a fictional heli to a real one and have everything perfect.


The Watt-Not in the Mega-Pack is uncannily similiar to an inexpensive fixed pitch heli I own.... more so than it was under RF3.x or RF4.x.

Is the Dominion "accurate", well yes for a fictional heli.

 

[Leyline]

Thanks opjose,
Though your post seems to keep saying You can't evaluate this or that,
and you can't do / learn / train this way,

You actually did provide some of the feedback I was looking for,
Even though the dominion is fictional, and therefore not comparable to a real life heli, I wanted to know why r6 was so different than 3.5 other than "feels floaty" and stuff like that...

While you DID tell me, "quantitatively" (in some measurable terms) that they changed the wing lift, and that did in fact make the heli's seem more powerful and responsive.


I also know, that the sim is NOT the real world, and I am still far from it, (because I fly with 0 wind in huge outdoor spaces, so I either need to fly smaller to emulate indoors, or start getting used to wind. Among about 498 other things)

The sim does offer some video training lessions, and practice tutorials, to keep the newbs (like me) busy for a bit... and I do think that learning to hover, and fly and land smoothly, slow approach / fast approach has helped me quite a bit...

I know if I go out and grab a model, and try to jump into some 3d acrobatics, or inverted flight without having run the model for at least 20 minutes or so, I will be in a lot of trouble, however I have flown some non 3d capable electrics, without breaking them (thank goodness they weren't mine)

And yes I do know, that someday somehow somewhere I will crash a heli...
But as I keep practicing on the sim, I say to myself, well saving up for something like a blade mCPX, it's only like $169 rtf now, maybe I can find something a bit more pro, but still on a budget.

Just saying without the sim I really would no go out looking at $300+ helis, for fear I could not even hover them... now I feel confident, that I could get one... and fly it real gently... but enjoy something nicer than say a syma s107