Honest opinions concerning fixing the KE forums.

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Boof69

Boof69

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If you were able to be completely honest about your opinions on what has made the KE forums such a ghost town what would you say? I don't know if this thread will be allowed to stay open, but It would be interesting to hear the theories and hopefully ideas to bring them back.


Im sure that my first point will be proved for me quickly.
First off I believe that some of the first responding members here that have seen almost every question asked are too cynical to be responding to new people.
If you are annoyed by someone not searching the forums for answers to common problems then maybe you shouldn't be the one to answer them. Personally I find it simple to just refer them to a relevant thread politely and possibly earn the forums another potentially fruitful member. If I feel it's a silly question I still respond and refer politely.
Secondly and almost as responsible for the loss of forum traffic is the almost complete lack of interest in the forum displayed for so very long by Knife Edge.
They backed off so much that they turned into solely a governing body and cultivated resentment amongst those loyal members who looked for news of upcoming features or any sort of buzz about the sim. Am I the only one that would like an explanation as to why everything is such a secret?
I think finally that the lack of updates and/or promise of growth has simply caused those most interested in the product to find other things to do with their time. Complacency breeds complacency.

As for what will improve these forums I think that KE would have to become involved in the forum an a daily basis, which has been better lately, but who knows how long past the release of RF7 that will last, would really help a lot. Also being less strict and allowing for more open conversation for the whole subject of RC. Even if only in a single board.
I don't think it will be easy to change the behavior of those members who feel that they have all the answers and new people should have to find it all out the hard way. Sadly we will always have to deal with people like that.
These people will reveal themselves quickly I am sure.
 
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We don't talk about what we are working on because we don't want to be copied. It's that simple.

Sometimes I'm not sure if that is the right approach, but at least now you know the reason.

I remember talking about this the last time I was at Toledo doing a seminar.

Jim
 
Thats a bit paranoid but your entitled to it I guess. Most of the software I use will talk about things to look forward to and even offer a beta program. Windows 7 and 8 both had a public beta. I guess the complete lack of communication with the avid is an approach too though.
 
+1 Boof
I think that is a bad excuse JB this program is behind the competitors so what would they copy??

Every program i know have open discussions and beta testing hell I even beta tested Guild wars 2 and many other programs as well.

IMHO you don't say anything as there is nothing to say about the new version 7 as it is the same as 6.5 so you leave us in the dark so we have to buy it to find out what is in it then it's to late for us to complain and you line your pockets.

Sorry but this is not how other companies deal with their loyal customers, they tell them what they are doing etc.
 
Whizgig said:
+1 Boof
I think that is a bad excuse JB this program is behind the competitors so what would they copy??

Every program i know have open discussions and beta testing hell I even beta tested Guild wars 2 and many other programs as well.

IMHO you don't say anything as there is nothing to say about the new version 7 as it is the same as 6.5 so you leave us in the dark so we have to buy it to find out what is in it then it's to late for us to complain and you line your pockets.

Sorry but this is not how other companies deal with their loyal customers, they tell them what they are doing etc.
Click to expand...

+1 @ Boof and Whizgig.

I feel the same way. My interest in the sim has diminished quite drastically for two reasons...

1: The lack of response to the community on suggestions / the lack of engagement with the community on beta testing for future versions. The idea of beta testing is a great one to use in this circumstance, because this particular community can provide useful feedback that can get the sim to it's full potential when the new version comes out. ( ie; the "hard core" sim users that are here on the forums contributing to make the sim better with all the great custom models and have a great experience with the sim).

2: The vibe I have gotten off of the past two versions 6/6.5 and the new release of 7. Is that the sim has focused more on all these mini games and making it more of a video game than a accurate simulation which is what a "simulator is supposed to be. Now I understand that including mini games is cool and all and targets a certain audience. I'm fine with that, but when it becomes that is the only new "feature" announced about the new versions and no acknowledgement to the airplane physics issues that 6 and 6.5 had... That's a big problem. If you side by side compare 6.5 to 7 if you are looking at it solely on the advertisement , RF7 appear to only have a couple of new mini games and a couple of new aircraft and a handful of expansion pack aircraft. No where is it saying there are improved physics or any advancement to the actual sim.
 
On a whim I came back and noticed this post... not surprised in the least that it's a ghost town.

Mainly, I think the board regulars killed it. Secondly, probably KE's constant reboxing of the same program with little to no added value.
 
Listen to your CUSTOMERS!!

+1 @ Boof, Whizgig, and 3-DMan

I can't tell you how let down I am with what I have seen advertised for RF7! The games and multiplayer combat is the biggest changes. I don't even use any of that stuff! I buy the sim to be just that....a sim. Why are you trying to create a video game? If I wanted that I would go play on my kids XBox 360 or Playstation. I want it to be an accurate sim to practice on during the winter and try new moves to get the feel of how the helicopter will react. I also like to demo planes and see if I would like to purchase something like that to actually fly.

As a businessman and consumer....all I see you doing is making this sim more for kids and cutting your throats with the hobby enthusiasts that originally bought your product. You have talented hard working folks here that are trying to help you make this the best product of its kind on the market. And the crazy thing is, they do it for FREE! Jim, if your not the person that really needs to hear these complaints, I suggest you grab that person by the throat and drag them over to the computer screen and make them see it for themselves. You have a tremendous opprtunity here to make this the best simulator on the market and all I see KE doing is throwing it away. Just my opinion.
 
I disagree with the comment that was said about RF being "behind all the competitors". IMO, it is far better than Phoenix and all the other big name sims. I do, however, agree with the complaints about the way RF7 was released and all the secrecy behind it. I also wish the developers would have spent their time refining the physics and the sound profiles to add more realism to the sim instead of making it more into a game than a sim.
 
We're not making a video game, and we're not going after children with this version. We are targeting RC pilots, from beginners to experts. There's something in the challenge system for all skill levels.

Our goal is to make people better pilots. Is that not one of the most important functions of a simulator? The challenges will absolutely build RC skill. We've seen it with everyone who has tried them for any amount of time.

Some challenges are closer to regular RC flying than others. Ring Race has you flying from inside the airplane. Unless you're into FPV, that's not a perspective you're going to get in real life. Yet that challenge still has things to teach people about how an airplane responds to controls, about the different climb/dive behaviors of different types of planes, and about how airplanes actually behave in the air vs. what you can perceive from the ground.

I would say that of all the new challenges, Ring Race is the most game-like. From there they get increasingly more hardcore RC.

Balloon Burst has you flying around to find and pop varying numbers of balloons. Sometimes they are in obvious locations. Sometimes they are not. The different levels use a wide variety of aircraft and include some pretty fun ideas.

Spot Landing makes you take off then land in a target area, and makes you do it without breaking your plane (no "lawn dart" cheating allowed). Then it tells you how you did by giving you a score. After you do that a few times, it starts changing the aircraft type to teach you about different glide profiles, and it starts making you do it deadstick. This challenge teaches beginners (and even not-so-beginners...) how to land, or how to land better--a fundamental RC skill. As they say, the takeoffs are optional, but the landings...

Limbo starts out easy by requiring you to simply fly under a bar. But then it ramps up the difficulty by making you do things like fly under more than one bar in a row, or circle back around and pass under the same bar multiple times, and do so with different types of planes. These kinds of tasks teach the ability to fly straight and level (especially when the bars are far apart) and maintain good control of your plane while being able to place it right where you want it. This is all done from the standard real-life "feet on the ground" perspective. Maybe you're an experienced pilot and that all sounds too easy. That's why we have Limbo II.

Grapple has you lifting and moving objects with your heli's grappling hook. This may be our most difficult challenge. It's one thing to be able to hover a heli and generally prevent it from getting away from you. It's another thing entirely to have enough control that you can hover it exactly where you intend above a specific object, grab that object and lift it safely, and move it to another very specific place before releasing it. This is especially difficult if there are objects in the way, as in the later levels. In this challenge the camera is on the ground, but if the heli moves too far away it will follow along behind at a walking speed, just like you would do in real life. Sure, putting objects in a ring or throwing soccer balls into a goal is a game. It's a game that forces you to really learn to fly a heli.

Air Race is my personal favorite. There are 5 possible gate locations organized in a semicircle around the pilot. Each gate consists of two pylons that you must fly between. Some levels use only some of the gates; some levels use all of them. The order in which you must fly through them varies between levels. That alone is enough for less-skilled pilots. It teaches--it requires--good control of your aircraft in different orientations and the ability to place it precisely where you want it. Then comes Air Race II, where some of the gates require you to pass through in specific orientations: upright, inverted, or knife edge. Doing things like flying inverted toward myself to pass through gate 2, then rolling knife edge and pulling hard to turn 180, then rolling back inverted and making corrections while facing away from myself to pass through gate 3 did wonders for my inverted rudder skills. I saw huge improvements over the course of several hours, and similar gains after more time the next day. This is just one small example. As soon as we had an early flyable prototype of this challenge, the first thing I said to Jim is "We're going to make a lot of people much better pilots."

G2 & G3 had events like Limbo and Spot Landing. They were buggy and we weren't happy with them, and we removed them in G4. But a lot of people loved them, and ever since then we've gotten requests to bring something like them back. With the challenges we've found a way to give people what they asked for (and the new versions actually work!).

If we don't hit the particular features you personally want in a new version, it's probably easy to forget that people actually ask us for things like limbo, and a fun fly type of balloon burst event, and a way to use their radio without having to pack their InterLink when travelling (and can you lower the price accordingly, please?). But each of those is absolutely something people ask for, and each of them is something we're providing with RealFlight 7.

The controller changes, interface options, and price reduction are a big part of what RealFlight 7 is about. They are a huge deal. But the challenges are also a huge deal. They are not "a couple mini-games". They are part of a deep skill-building system. Bonus: they are also fun! (If you're someone who thinks you can't learn anything if you're having fun, I feel bad for you.) Personally, I wish I had a lot more time to spend flying the challenges--especially after seeing what they did for my abilities in a matter of days. It's a common misconception that this job just involves flying all day. :)
 
Many of these ' features ' that are described above are a great idea. It's just a crying shame that it took more than 4 years to impliment these features that people have been asking for since G4.
Personally, I think 4 years is far too long to have to wait before we start to see the features that we have been requesting. In that period, I have bought 4 editions of RF ( *.0 versions and *.5 versions ) and still have errors when loading MP fields and voice chat doesn't work with around 90% of other members online.
Personally, I would like to see far more functionality and stability in the program than I would a heap of new games. :(
 
Aaaaaahhhaaaaaa said:
Many of these ' features ' that are described above are a great idea. It's just a crying shame that it took more than 4 years to impliment these features that people have been asking for since G4.
Personally, I think 4 years is far too long to have to wait before we start to see the features that we have been requesting. In that period, I have bought 4 editions of RF ( *.0 versions and *.5 versions ) and still have errors when loading MP fields and voice chat doesn't work with around 90% of other members online.
Personally, I would like to see far more functionality and stability in the program than I would a heap of new games. :(
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+1 Aaaaahhaaaaa

Games is not what this sim needs, we need DX10 or 11 which has been the most asked for not games.

Going to DX 10 or 11 will fix the bugs this sim has and allow for better model creation and game play, yet why haven't you looked at that??

I am an rc flyer not a game player as many of us are we brought this sim to lean to fly RC as you have stated yourselves it was created to teach you how to fly RC not play games.

I can't see how you you can say that games are at the top of the list of what people want in this sim when you can go through all of the threads in this forum and it has and always will be about DX and stability. physics ect not games.
 
+2

DX and stability and improved physics and accurate simulation.... I dont want to play yet more silly games its surpose to be a flight sim not the local Arcade.
 
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:confused:..err .......
I thought the title and topic of this thread was
"Honest opinions concerning fixing the KE forums."
But here we are talking about events and whats in 7 again
that being said....to be fair...

Many did voice that we wanted the old events back...but not at the expense of doing nothing over performance issues/physics

Ke has listened to suggestions that were made in the past and even implemented Aero Tow ,Grapple , combat and now Events are back .... all of those were requests

KE HAS beta tested in the past ...I know they did .... I participated in them ...but was disappointed when they discontinued doing so

We wanted the way the Ratings at the swap pages worked , to be changed .....KE did that
so its not like everything folks asked for fell on deaf ears....... as some seem to keep saying

BACK on Topic :
Its been said that it was long time board regulars that killed the forums ...
I disagree and think its funny to even suggest that ..
most of those same regulars were the most RF knowledgeable and talented and helpful contributors to both this forum and its swap page ...
which is... and always has been ....and probably will always be ....the biggest draw that gets people here and gets them to come back in the first place
not to mention a very big sales draw
90% of the people who came here for help got fast ,accurate ,responses sometimes with "How To" screen shots and examples to their questions and problems ....by board regulars
the other 10% generally had another agenda or didn't like what they were hearing ...even if it was the truth

It was those same regulars that helped to foster new talent by freely and generously letting nebs pick their brains ...they held nothing back and revealed all of their perceived "secrets" to anyone who showed a genuine interest ....
there was NOTHING wrong trying to get some of those new people to do their own legwork ...not only new modelers but that includes new model "requesters" as well

Its my honest opinion IT WAS the RC groups mods that came over here ......that killed the Forum

They had no clue as to who was who and the relationship's certain members had with one another or personal quirks and posting styles that many here had gotten used to
and some of the resons for violations leveed against some forum members were ridicules on the face of it ...it was like we were in the old soviet union and you could not speak freely , because at any moment the most mundane innocuous statement could land you in the gulag

But I'll have to agree with boof ...the lack of KE's direct involvement (I'm not talking mods) and the plethora of spam did kinda take the wind outta the sails

IMO RF needs to go forward as a hard core RC flight Sim with physics and performance at the forefront ...
No matter how much Eye candy you can slather on a model its all pointless if the physics aren't right ..that being said

Our contributors and their talents have out grown a 20k poly limit
as long as performance stays the same or can be improved I say give 'em at least 10 k more
 
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Maj. Numbskully said:
Most of those same regulars were the most RF knowledgeable and talented and helpful contributors to this forums swap page ...
which is and always has been and probably will always be ....the biggest draw to that gets people here and gets them to come back in the first place.
Click to expand...
The swap pages were the deciding factor for me choosing RF over Phoenix.
 
I can testify to the bad treatment that some members are famous for. When I started as a member here I spent a month lurking and doing what is so drilled into newb's head which is to search the forums for answers to my questions before "bothering" anyone for direction and as they so repetitively mention the answers were there. I was able to complete a model without interaction and posted it. I had modelling experience so that part wasn't too big a problem. The rest was found in the support pages. After making a second model I started posting and asking questions. I was met with some cold and stilted replies due to a prejudice I was unaware of. The long time members assumed I was another modeler who had a bad reputation and had come back a few times under new screen names and after bans even. Even after this assumption was revealed to me and I denied it I was still under this cloud. I didn't start arguments nor was I combative I tried only to fit in and be as helpful as possible. Luckily, even though I am not very thick skinned, I kept at it and slowly some of these members started trusting me.
I mention all of this because these guys hold on to grudges so hard that they mistreat new people just in case they are "trouble makers" from the past. They keep themselves guarded so not to be made a fool of, I guess,. I feel many of them have lost the idea of this forum or any forum for that matter. That it exists for the sharing of ideas and as a support group for like minded/interested people.
Just because it is a habit to log on every few minutes doesn't give anyone ownership of the place. If anything it makes you a representative of the forum and you become the first impression for the community. Too many times this first impression is a terrible one simply because this new guy came here for answers and didn't use the search function first. Even if you feel they should use it instead of posting there is a tactful way of saying it and not offending. I have been smarmy in a few posts in my time but only to those passive aggressive members here who just won't back off. This community has probably lost many potential content contributors due to this unfriendly behavior.
I think it's the same as road rage. You sit in a car separated from other people and suddenly you're a tough guy and your telling people off through a closed window and flipping them the bird. The same people when in a room with people don't have the guts to treat people like that. There's no protection when you're face to face. Just try to imagine you're at a convention for a common interest and these people are new at this years event. If they asked you a question would you answer them and transfer knowledge or tell them to look it up on Google?
As for maj's comment about KE changing the ratings for us when we asked. That isn't what happened. We had to stop creating content to get any attention at all. We shouldn't have to do that. They should se us all for what we are power users for their product and the deciding factor for sim buyers that are on the fence about what sim to use. The swap content is a huge factor. You would think our input would be valuable. A lot of it is ignored. Jim or Ryan just posted that they included things in the new version that were most requested. We all know that is not the case. It's their sim put in it what you want but they should keep in mind that we are unpaid partners and we should be heard. Our opinions should be sought out by KE. We are treated as any other casual user and that is silly and sad.
I know first hand that the forum is dead for these reasons because another forum dealing with this stuff is doing well and that's because of the spirit in which it's run. A forum for the people by the people. Too bad it had to come to that.
Ultimately this forum won't be fixed because no wants to fix it. Most will just minimize it and say "hey man get a life it's just a forum". That's true but to some it's important and that should be respected. Caring about a forum, which by the way is a virtual hang out for friends doesn't mean you don't have a life and that you're not busy with family or "real hobbies". I assure you I am a busy person but it only takes a second to log on and a few minutes to catch up on new threads. Only a few extra minutes on top of that to be friendly and help someone out. You will only gain a friend.
 
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