How can I tell what is limiting my system?

F

Fundy

New member
Hi

I'm new to PCs (I have Macs) but I just bought a used PC just to run G4. I bought a NVidia GeForce FX5200 256M video card (AGP). The store guy said it should work great. I have a 1.6 Ghz single processor, 1 gig ram. XP prof SP2.

The computer used to have a Radeon 9800 pro video card but it died and was replaced by a plain Jane variety just to have it running. I bought the 5200 hoping to get back to something decent.

I don't have the sort of Mac that can run G4 (dual G5 processors instead of dual intel).

The simple scenes run OK but the water scenes stutter and run sort of jerky.

How can I tell where the weak point is in my system? If it is the video card I can take it back and get something better.

thanks for any advice you can offer.
 
Optimizing your system for interactive 3D applications can be tricky. There's no way to say for certain that *this* or *that* is limiting your performance, since everything is interconnected. A slow CPU can make a fast GPU worthless, and a fast CPU can still be throttled by a slow CPU.

Memory is the only thing that's easy to measure. Fire up Task Manager and see what it says. If you're using less RAM than you have installed, you probably don't need more.

One test you can try is to check your CPU utilization with the program running. I'm not saying this is a perfect benchmark, but on a properly written program, the CPU will surrender cycles back to the system when the video card is doing its thing. On my system, I think my CPU is only running at around 30-40%, which means that a video card might help me.

It sounds like your entire system is a little older, so you really should consider either a major upgrade or a new computer. If you don't want to buy a whole new computer, here's the upgrade path that'll give you the most bang for the buck (in this order!) In short, don't expect to do a $100 upgrade at this point. I'd set aside at least $400 to make the jump to the next level. If you can't spend that much, then wait until you can.

There's one caveat with this list: if you already have a motherboard with PCI-E on it, then consider the new video card first. You can do the rest later.

You reall need a new Motherboard, CPU, RAM, and video card. Since every bus technology has changed since your P4 was hot, this has got to be the place to start. You need Serial-ATA, PCI-Express, and DDR-3 to get to the next generation.
Get the fastest dual-core (or more) CPU that you can afford, after pricing the other stuff

Get 2GB of fast RAM.

Get a video card that's at least equivalent to the GeForce 7600, 8600, or 9600. This little site is a great tool for comparing video cards. You'll notice that the 7600, 8600, and 9600 have about the same raw performance. The differences are actually pretty subtle, but the newer cards can handle more and better shaders - making your image look better on programs that handle it. Whether you get ATI or nVidia is completely up to you, just make sure you at least match the performance of the 7600. That's as slow as I'd want to get on a modern PC (you can and probably should do better.) If you spend $200 on a video card, you're probably in right about the right performance range.

So right there, you've spent about $500 or so. That's the hard-core stuff that makes up the meat of any upgrade. What may get you in trouble at this point is that new motherboards are starting to ship with only one IDE connector; this is because all the new, large hard drives are SATA, and the old fashioned IDE port is only there to support a CD or DVD drive.

Hard drives can be had from $100-200, depending on capacity. You won't get much of a performance boost with a new drive, except for while the game is loading. I do see quite a bit of difference between the computer with the old hard drive and the new one that's booting off of a nice shiny SATA drive.

The other decision is whether you should load 64-bit Vista or 32-bit Windows XP (don't bother with 64-bit XP) on your new system. I have experience with both now, and I don't think you will really have much trouble with either, as long as you have new hardware. I have Vista and XP on my PC, and I don't really see any major peroformance difference between the two. Vista still has some annoying glitches, but so did XP. If you decide to go with Vista, make sure you can track down Vista drivers for any older hardware before you even try a Vista install. Otherwise, go ahead and stick with Windows XP.
 
It's refreshing to see such a well thought out and informative post such as Tom's. His is advice is very good across the board, although I'd say it's not necessary at all to adopt DDR3 RAM at this point, though it's fast as hell if you want to go all out and spend the money for it. Otherwise DDR2 800 is just fine for most modern Intel chipsets--and 4Gb is easy pickings these days! 64bit Vista really shines with the added RAM as it actually uses it unlike older Windows iterations.

Good stuff.

Excellent post, Tom and a really nice contribution to the forum in my opinion. Many folks can benefit from what you've shared.

Carl
 
If he would give us the exact specs of his system, I don't really think he would have to go that far! You can tell the guy does not want to go and by a whole new high end system.

The specs them self might really show the low points of his machine. Not just hardware but software, driver dates, etc.

I know alot of people with pretty old systems that get by quite well.

.02
 
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No doubt-- you can squeak by with a low-end computer at low detail settings and low resolution on photofields without issue.

I was merely commenting that Tom's post was really informative in general. Now if future members use the search function to find it and others like it, well that's for others to complain about :D

Carl
 
The 5200 series is just barely a DX7 chipset based card with some enhancements to make it more DX8 like.

Since any card you get will need to be kept "fed" for best performance, as TomXP411 alluded to, your current setup is fairly weak for G4.

You may need to stick to Pano airfields to keep the load on your system low.
 
Here is what it says in the Tech support window. I'm copying this from the PC screen and sending it from my Mac. The PC isn't connected to the internet except when I need to download updates.

System: Windows XP Professional (5.1, Build 2600) Service Pack 2 (2600.xpsp_sp2_qfe.070227-2300)
Processor: AMD Athlon(tm) XP 1900+, MMX, 3DNow, ~1.5GHz
Memory: 1024MB RAM
DX Version: DirectX 9.0c (4.09.0000.0904)
Video Card: NVIDIA GeForce FX5200
MFR: NVIDIA
Version: 6.14.0011.6371 (English)
Date: 9/16/07 14:07:00, 5783040 bytes
Video Card: NVIDIA GeForce FX5200
MFR: NVIDIA
Version: 6.14.0011.6371 (English)
Date: 9/16/07 14:07:00, 5783040 bytes
(Why this is repeated I don't know)
CD-ROM (?:\) Sony CD-RW CRX300E (?)
CD-ROM (?:\) Sony CD-RW CRX300E (?)
Installed in: D:program Files\RealFlightG4
Free Disk Space (D:\) 38824 mb free
Launcher Version: 1.00.018
LauncherHelper Version: 1.00.312
RealFlight G4: 4.00.054

As I noted in brackets above, I don't know why some items are duplicated in the list. Maybe that indicates something interesting.
 
Fundy, that's actually a well-balanced machine, it's just very old tech across the board. In other words it will have a very hard time running G4 on anything other than photofields and low resolutions, but you could run Half-Life2 on it at decent settings.

So back to what Tom was saying, if you upgrade your GPU to a 7600GS or thereabouts--one of the few available AGP slot cards still sold that has any inkling of horsepower to it, you may see improvements, however the rest of the computer will limit overall performance (you'll be CPU bound in your case).

Carl
 
Sounds like I need to can the 5200 and look at a 7600.

Is upgrading the main processor practical on this computer?

thanks for your help
 
Just FYI: You have an Athlon XP 1900. If you say "I have a 1.6GHz CPU", that's misleading, since that CPU performs like a 1.9Ghz Pentium. You're better off quoting model numbers these days rather than clock speeds, since the performance can vary so much based on the brand, number of cores, and generation of the chip.

Back to your system. Upgrading the CPU is only practical to a point. Depending on the motherboard you're running, you may not be able to upgrade very much. The upper limit is probably a 2700. (I built a lot of PC's with Athlon XP's in them.) A video card may help, but I'm not sure how much of a benefit you'll see. I recently upgraded a couple of machines that had faster CPU's than yours, and even with good video cards, they were getting pretty poor frame rates on the 3D fields. They were fine on photofields, though.


By the way: why don't you hook your PC to the Internet? Security, or do you just not have a router? If you don't have a router, you should. Even your Mac is susceptible to malware; I just read an article yesterday that says that the new round of malware is targeting Macs and iPhones. (oh joy.)
 
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So moving to the 7600GS would be a step up for the video card.

I displayed "Sidebar" while running G4 so I could view CPU use and it shows G4 using 96 to 100%. I notice when I first start the computer it seems to be doing some background tasks. If I try to run G4 during this time even the basic scenes don't run well. As soon as the tasks are finished I once again have full CPU available and G4 seems to use all of it.

So then, is upgrading the CPU possible on this computer? Practical? How hard will it be to find something for this older PC?

I don't have the PC set up for on-line use because all of my on-line stuff is already established on my main computer which is a Mac. Also, with no high-speed available here, we only have half-speed dial-up, I don't use on-line mail, so if I set up the PC for e-mail I would end up with my mail spread out on 2 systems, sounds like a mess to me.
 
Yes it would be a step up, but remember the CPU also has to keep the video card "fed" with data.

Someone with a faster processor, memory subsystem and system bus might see a bigger increase in performance than you would.
 
Or just be a bottom-feeder like me!

Just my $.02 here, but by doing like I do, you can be about a generation and a half behind the bleeding edge for pretty (well, relatively, at least) cheap and run the latest version of RF with most of the sliders slid to at least the middle setting.

Long version is troll the auction sites and find an auction where a manufacturer or big-box retailer is dumping a customer return or demo unit. Then, if needed, get the piece or two you need either new after doing some comparison shopping, or at auction.

Viz: about 4 years ago I was able to run RFG2 and survived the upgrade to G3 with a machine that set me back about $600 total. It was a Dell 4600 that was being re-sold by someone who camps at the front door of the Dell outlet then puts the stuff on eBay. The computer was still under warranty, likely ordered then canceled by a customer. A couple sticks of Crucial RAM and a last-year's-model GPU bought at auction and I was up and running.

Better yet: to get myself ready for RFG4 - and for MS FSX which can bring a circa-2006 $4K Alienware monster to its knees - I just scored a Velocity Micro E2250 (reviews available on line - quad-core CPU, 4GB RAM, nVidia 9800GTX GPU...) for $650 on eBay. The Best Buy outlet is currently dumping these pups there and at the overstock dot com auction site. Basically, this is a box that'd set you back two grand earlier this year, and that would still cost $1600 ($1300 with the coupon that expires today) as a similarly-configured Dell XPS 630. Buying parts and building this yourself would still set you back $1200.

There's ways to do this if you don't mind doing a bit of legwork and maybe waiting a bit. Waiting both for things to pop up at the auction sites, and also waiting until you win an auction without getting into a bidding war. Recently, the very same thing I just bought sold to another buyer for $1025. Only diff is mine is missing a mouse and I had to wait an additional two weeks before getting mine. That's worth a few hundred bucks, IMHO.

Sorry to rant, but I think this info is worthwhile, and no, I'm not an auction reseller, have nothing to gain by posting this. On the contrary, I stand to lose by hipping "competitors" to my source of cheap hardware. But I already got mine - two of 'em in fact - and now it's time to share with the group ;P

These machines have value, but they are also a commodity, and this market can be surfed and exploited to one's advantage, and by so doing, one can save oneself 65% or so. One would be a doofus not to leap on this action IM most HO.

FYI. YMMY. DTAWN ("wooden nickels" admonishment). ETC.
 
Well, you could go with a 7600 or 7800 card and overclock the CPU about 10% and get away with it until you can get a whole new machine. I would not drop a bunch of money into a machine that dated when you can get one (off the shelf or build your own) that would run RF well for for just over 1k.
 
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