USB extension? Anyone have luck with them?

Dan Ward

New member
Hello,

I was recently reading an article where Scott Stoops mentioned how nice it was to use your large TV for a monitor. Probelm is computer is here, TV is over there.

I have the HDMI video and audio nailed. Good extension cable and it works awsome!!!:D

But while the USB extension cable I bought works in the most literal of definitions is induces a horrible latency, is that the word? :confused: Or for lack of a better description stick inputs from the controller are delayed in a big way making it almost impossible to fly.:(

Am I the only one who has ever wanted to do this? I can't beleive so, it feels like a common thing to want to do. Has anyone ever had any luck extending the controller's USB cable and if so how far and what kind of cable?

Thanks in advance for any and all help!
 
USB has a known limit of just over 5 meters or 16 feet. There are USB repeaters available as well that can extend the range considerably. I haven't tried it personally but I believe latency will always be a problem in this application.
 
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Yes, you are correct and I am aware of the typical usb limit. I am also aware of repeaters and actually purchase an active USB extention cable that has amplifier built in. But as I stated this amplified cable, the active circuits, are introducing a propigation delay. Controller inputs are delayed just enough to mess with control of the aircraft.

This idea of wanting to extend the USB cable doesn't seem to me to be that strange and when I called realflight (great planes, whoever they are) they mentioned some people are having sucess and recommended I post here to leaqrn what those that are having sucess are using.

Thanks for the help
 
I've seen very limited discussion on USB extensions here. You might try the search function. Then you can report back for the next guy!!
 
Eh, USB doesn't suffer from propegation delays quite as you are thinking. The distance travelled is simply waay too short...

The signal delays are on par with PCI propegation delays, which is several orders of magnitude faster than USB serial speeds.

( and BTW I own my very own Time Domain Reflectometer and the like, thank you... so I've measured... )

Rather two things can and will happen.

The signal quality ( think clarity ) degrades over distance travelled. Normally this is not all that dramatic due to the short distances. I have a 20' USB cable connected to my Interlink and there is NO difference what-so-ever even when I connect up two for 40'.

More important, and likely what is affecting you, is that long thinner cables decrease the voltage available just enough that the UARTs cannot latch onto the bits being transferred serially, causing delays as packets have to be retransmitted. This is particularly problematic if there are any demands for power from the external USB device.


Use an external POWERED USB hub.

The USB hub is connected to a wall wart that supplies power to the Interlink. Then the hub is also connected to the computer.

Since the Interlink is no longer drawing power from the computer's USB port, there is far less data/packet loss and all is normally well.

Just make sure that there is no other device plugged into the computer's "root hub" that the Powered USB hub is connected to.
 
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Eh, USB doesn't suffer from propegation delays quite as you are thinking. The distance travelled is simply waay too short...

The signal delays are on par with PCI propegation delays, which is several orders of magnitude faster than USB serial speeds.

( and BTW I own my very own Time Domain Reflectometer and the like, thank you... so I've measured... )

Rather two things can and will happen.

The signal quality ( think clarity ) degrades over distance travelled. Normally this is not all that dramatic due to the short distances. I have a 20' USB cable connected to my Interlink and there is NO difference what-so-ever even when I connect up two for 40'.

More important, and likely what is affecting you, is that long thinner cables decrease the voltage available just enough that the UARTs cannot latch onto the bits being transferred serially, causing delays as packets have to be retransmitted. This is particularly problematic if there are any demands for power from the external USB device.


Use an external POWERED USB hub.

The USB hub is connected to a wall wart that supplies power to the Interlink. Then the hub is also connected to the computer.

Since the Interlink is no longer drawing power from the computer's USB port, there is far less data/packet loss and all is normally well.

Just make sure that there is no other device plugged into the computer's "root hub" that the Powered USB hub is connected to.

Thanks for the reply.

Before I started a new thread on this subject I did try the seach feature. The only applicable thread I found was in the G3/G3.5 section and didn't really provide much "how to help."

I did also read the "stickys" in hopes of finding an answer there but didn't.

So I started a thread a new thread in which I posted details of my failed attempt to extend USB. I explained what I experience as best as I could describe it based on how I perceived the performance. I am no guru on anything but my hope was to gather responses in one thread that may help me as well as others.

( and BTW I DO NOT own my very own Time Domain Reflectometer and the like, thank you... so I HAVE NOT measured... :D)


I had purchased and am trying to use an active USB extension cable. I don't know if links work or if allowed but here is an attempt to show you the cable I purchased.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10303&cs_id=1030312&p_id=7532&seq=1&format=2

When I use this cable I have two USB ports on tope of my computer. One is the type that has the little power symbol next to it and the other one does not have this symbol. They are both USB 2 ports but one has the built in PowerShare feature. Restults are the same in either port.

While that cable works, it acts as if all signal from controller to PC are delayed. Push the stick left, plane delays before beginning to roll left. When plane is where you want it to stop the roll go to neutral stick and plane continues to roll left. This requires some right stick to correct and when plane appears to be where you want to stop the now right roll, go to neutral stick, and plane continues to roll right.

The cable that I purchased is longer than I needed. And based on your reply I feel I should not give up. Instead I should return my active cable and try a different technical solution.

1. I have a powered hub already that presently is new in the box and never used. You recommend a powered hub. So I have this covered.

2. You indicate you have sucessfully used passive USB extention cables up to 40' in length, "I have a 20' USB cable connected to my Interlink and there is NO difference what-so-ever even when I connect up two for 40'."

3. 40' woks for me and if it works for you all I have to do is duplicate what you are doing. Therefore I will return my active cable and replace it with 2 passive USB extension cables. I will plug them together for a total length of 40' and I will plug them into my PC. Does it matter which USB port on the PC that I use? Rember my PC has 2 USB ports, They are both USB 2 ports but one has the built in PowerShare feature.

4. Then at the end of the now 40' passive USB cable I will use my extenal powered USB hub. This will supply external power for the interlink controller that will plug into the hub.

Did I get this all right? If so I am learning. And if it works when done my learning will be reinforced with a working result.

I must admit am am still confused by one of your statements. Please forgive but this is all new to me. You said, "Just make sure that there is no other device plugged into the computer's "root hub" that the Powered USB hub is connected to."

Computers 'root hub"? I did some googling and beleive the "root hub" to be something internal to my PC. Here si what I found "A USB Root Hub is where all of your computer's drivers and software are stored. It is the "central filing cabinet" of your system. If you are having problems with your USB devices, it may be because of a faulty USB Root Hub. Another reason your USB devices aren't working is that they require more power than the USB hub allows"

Therefore I went to device manager in Windows 7 and saw I have quite a few items under USB. 2 of the items are named "USB Root Hub". Please see attachment.

1. Other then a slight difference in location description on general tab they look identical. One is 1C2D and the other is 1C26.

2. The power tab says each says it is self powered and has 500mA available with zero being used.
2a. One does say it is a 6 port with one available port.
2b. Thye others says it is an 8 port with one available port

3. After that I am at a complete loss as to which is where on my Dell XPS-8300 and if I knew how I woulod use that to my benifit so I can follow your recomendation to, "Just make sure that there is no other device plugged into the computer's "root hub" that the Powered USB hub is connected to."

I really do appreciate your help and hopw to hear back from you. Thanks:)
 

Attachments

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I think what Jose is referring to by 'root hub' (in your situation) is the USB port next to the port your powered hub is plugged into. USB ports are done in pairs. I think he's saying you'll have better results if you leave the other port (the one next to the port your powered hub is plugged into) unused.
 

Interesting, it touts itself as being a repeater, but I see no talk about the regeneration circuitry required to do this.

I would think the vendor would go crazy talking up the built in power regeneration circuit if it were a true repeater/regeneration device.

As a result I'll put money on it merely being an extension cable.

When I use this cable I have two USB ports on tope of my computer. One is the type that has the little power symbol next to it and the other one does not have this symbol. They are both USB 2 ports but one has the built in PowerShare feature. Restults are the same in either port.

Usually when you have two adjacent USB ports on the computer, they are internally connected to the same Internal "root hub" USB controller chip.


The cable that I purchased is longer than I needed. And based on your reply I feel I should not give up. Instead I should return my active cable and try a different technical solution.

Your description is a somewhat classic example of the data not being received correctly and the receiver sending a Negative ACKnowledgement ( NACK ) for the packets. This causes the sending device to resend until the receiver submits an ACKnowledgement ( ACK ).

Since this happens somewhat quickly and repeatedly as USB is a serialized transmission, the end result is EXACTLY as you describe... a perceived delay.

1. I have a powered hub already that presently is new in the box and never used. You recommend a powered hub. So I have this covered.

2. You indicate you have sucessfully used passive USB extention cables up to 40' in length, "I have a 20' USB cable connected to my Interlink and there is NO difference what-so-ever even when I connect up two for 40'."

3. 40' woks for me and if it works for you all I have to do is duplicate what you are doing. Therefore I will return my active cable and replace it with 2 passive USB extension cables. I will plug them together for a total length of 40' and I will plug them into my PC. Does it matter which USB port on the PC that I use? Rember my PC has 2 USB ports, They are both USB 2 ports but one has the built in PowerShare feature.

First try this...

Plug the powered hub directly into the computer and wall outlet.

Then power up the computer and let it find the powered hub.

Once you see the "device detection" balloons finish up, plug the Interlink into the Powered Hub.

Check for delays... if there are none so far so good.

Now the big question is where will you get the best results by placing the powered hub....

4. Then at the end of the now 40' passive USB cable I will use my extenal powered USB hub. This will supply external power for the interlink controller that will plug into the hub.

Did I get this all right? If so I am learning. And if it works when done my learning will be reinforced with a working result.

I would try it as I mentioned above first... eliminating one variable at a time.

If the Interlink plugged into the Powered Hub, plugged into the computer works fine, then try plugging the extension cable into the Powered hub, then the Interlink into the Extension cable.

BTW: If the computer reacts with a DING or as if a new device is found, when you plug in JUST the cable into the powered hub ( no connected interlink ) your cable DOES have a repeater circuit in it. If that happens try to find a shorter passive USB extension cable, preferably with thicker wires as some come with very thin wiring.

Computers 'root hub"? I did some googling and beleive the "root hub" to be something internal to my PC. Here si what I found "A USB Root Hub is where all of your computer's drivers and software are stored. It is the "central filing cabinet" of your system. If you are having problems with your USB devices, it may be because of a faulty USB Root Hub. Another reason your USB devices aren't working is that they require more power than the USB hub allows"

USB is a high speed serialized data stream protocol.

It needs a sending and receiving device at each end to operate.

These devices are usually bidirectional. In the old slow serial ( comm port ) days, the controller was called a UART. ( A universal asynchronous receiver/transmitter, usually abbreviated UART and is a type of "asynchronous receiver/transmitter" ).

With the advent of USB, the UART was replaced with a more sophisticated device, often referred to as the "USB root hub" because it usually has two or more associated ports.

Most computers have multiple root hubs, some systems have as many as eight or more, each can handle two separate USB ports.

Each "root hub" also has a 5v power regulation supply associated with it. Typically this regulator cannot handle more than 400mA of power drain.... even when they say 500mA available.

In some systems the regulated supply current are tied together to save manufacturing cost, so one regulator can power multiple Root Hubs. This is not good.

One device can pull the total amount of power available, the result is that one you plug in the second device, things stop working or work poorly or intermittently... ( sound familiar? ).

So it is best to limit the total current drain on your computer.

Since the USB signal itself is affected by power going to the root hub, the quality of the wave form seen by the receiver can be affected by too much power draw ( and yes for those who know more about this I'm being overly simplistic on purpose... )


Therefore I went to device manager in Windows 7 and saw I have quite a few items under USB. 2 of the items are named "USB Root Hub". Please see attachment.

1. Other then a slight difference in location description on general tab they look identical. One is 1C2D and the other is 1C26.

2. The power tab says each says it is self powered and has 500mA available with zero being used.
2a. One does say it is a 6 port with one available port.
2b. Thye others says it is an 8 port with one available port

Yup you have a lot of USB ports on that computer! 14 total!

3. After that I am at a complete loss as to which is where on my Dell XPS-8300 and if I knew how I woulod use that to my benifit so I can follow your recomendation to, "Just make sure that there is no other device plugged into the computer's "root hub" that the Powered USB hub is connected to."

I really do appreciate your help and hopw to hear back from you. Thanks:)


To simplify, plug the Powered USB hub into one USB port on the computer. There will be another port or three right next to that port. These are likely all connected to the same "root hub"... just make sure nothing is connected to the other ports when you test things out.

Later once you have things running, you can plug things back in ONE AT A TIME and retest to see if anything upsets the applecart so to speak.

Good luck!
 
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BTW: I've also been able to get my JR 11X to work with a RX connected to a RX to USB device that lets Realflight see my JR as a secondary controller WIRELESSLY.

It's a BEAR to set up so I would not recommend it at all.

The extension cable is far easier to deal with and this way the only wear and tear is on the Interlink.
 
Just wanted to drop and and provide an update. I think I am seeing progress.

1. I did as suggested, plugged external powered hub into a USB port located on top of my PC. No other USB ports on top of my PC are being used. Windows recongnized and installed the hub. Interlink then pljugged into hub. This puts about 3 feet of USB cable between hub and PC. Everything works great.

2. Next I added a 10 bfoot passive USB extension between PC and hub for a total of 13 feet between PC and external powered hub. Everythinhg still works great and I'm about 1/3 of the way to where I hope to end up and everything is working great.

Now I need to get out and find somemore passive USB extension cables but so far all is well.

This has been a great learning experience so far and I really hope this thread will help others after I'm done.

Mr. Opjose - Thank you ever so much for helping this old man out. I was ready to give up but...well now I have hope.

I am getting the picture that the external powered hub almost works as a repeater? It provides a new DC power source to USB devices? Anyway I'm not there yet. Will report back after I get a couple more 10 foot passive USB cables.
 
I am getting the picture that the external powered hub almost works as a repeater? It provides a new DC power source to USB devices?

Yes.

It actually introduces a small delay as well, but it should be unnoticible to you. You only have one level of "root hubs". I've seen some computers that cascade up to three root hubs internally, each throwing in a 10uS delay.

The problem with your repeater cord is/was not the built in hub, but rather the power drain and thereby the degradation of the waveforms.

With a good cord you CAN run USB 2.0 out past 16ft provided there is little to no power consumption by the attached devices.

Your powered hub is now providing power to the Interlink, not the computer, so this helps matters greatly.

The only question is where to place the powered hub in the chain, for best effect.
 
Another wireless option for USB control might be to use a product such as the following:
http://www.simstick.co.uk/instructions.php
I have one to test, and in a day or two, I can report my findings. You would need a wireless keyboard or plan to not crash.

You might even try using the mono audio cable connection on the back of the Interlink controller. I don't know how long of a cord can be used before the signal degrades.
 
FWIW, I use RF with a USB extension cable, and I've had no problems. I have two different cables I use: one is a simple 6' A-B cable, and the other one is a 15' cable with a built-in repeater. Both seem to work just fine.

If you're having trouble, the problem could just be a lousy cable, or it could be that USB port on your computer.
 
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