What's it gonna be, boys?

Apparently I can't open a .doc file. You don't need to tell me your credentials. I already told you I don't doubt your real world expertise. I know you know your stuff. My credentials are in my last post. You need to be having this discussion with Jim. If there's something he can do to fix the sim, he'll do it. You know that.

I'm sure prop wash affects all aircraft. I don't see how it would have more effect on one type of plane than another, disregarding weights, etc., that would be in the editor anyway. I remember you talking about the effect of prop wash on the inner vs. outer wing. That would have to apply to any aircraft, not just foamies. Prop wash is prop wash. Obviously a lighter aircraft would respond to prop wash more than a heavier acraft would. But that would be determined by the weight of the aircraft, which is a part of the AV file, I would think. If there's a problem in the physics engine, KE will fix it. Jim's already called Mikey out. I think it's your turn to talk to him.
 
It is you're lack of real world foamie experiences that is getting in the way of you getting up to speed on this issue. It is not about weight. Larger wood planes flying at speed have air flow over the wings giving them lift, see where I am going. Foamies fly very slow, from about 4 or 5 mph, up to 10 or so mph. Prop wash is every thing, you have no lift, no control without it. The fact that the yak has an air foil wing, does not change the fact that it fly's very slow. Very little air flow over the control surfaces, very little lift. In the past I have had to turn the lift up to near 200% to even get close to real world flying, but the new environment, which I like, changed every thing. The prop wash just does not cut it in this environment.
It is hurting large 3d planes, 3d foamies and even hellies. If you are useing the wrong prop wash model, there is No way to get real world flying. That is the point of Real Flight, is it not.
 
flexible said:
It is you're lack of real world foamie experiences that is getting in the way of you getting up to speed on this issue. It is not about weight. Larger wood planes flying at speed have air flow over the wings giving them lift, see where I am going. Foamies fly very slow, from about 4 or 5 mph, up to 10 or so mph. Prop wash is every thing, you have no lift, no control without it. The fact that the yak has an air foil wing, does not change the fact that it fly's very slow. Very little air flow over the control surfaces, very little lift. In the past I have had to turn the lift up to near 200% to even get close to real world flying, but the new environment, which I like, changed every thing. The prop wash just does not cut it in this environment.
It is hurting large 3d planes, 3d foamies and even hellies. If you are useing the wrong prop wash model, there is No way to get real world flying. That is the point of Real Flight, is it not.
Click to expand...

THERE IS NO SPOON!

Flexible IMHO I side with your observations about prop wash/torque roll EFFECTS on the planes in the sim.

However as I posted in the other thread, you CANNOT go by what you see with the smoke.

Smoke is merely eye candy generated by the video card's processors independant of the table driven plane emulation of the sim.

It's very easy to equate these two things as being tied together as they are in the real world... but in a sim, these are just numbers.

I believe there is indeed something "off", I just don't think you can rely on the smoke/particle effects to indicate what that is.
 
Ok, I actually flew the model. I own 4 different foam 3d models. However, none are in this 39" class. (UMX Extra 300 3d, Twisted Hobbies 32" Xtra Slick, Twisted Hobbys 32" Edge 540, and Twisted Hobbys Crazy 88 Biplane).

That said, my impressions are:

First, the good news. I prefer this to any of the foam 3d planes in Phoenix. Now the not so good news:

1) Roll rate is probably a tad too fast.

2) The plane is acting like there is a lateral balance problem. Walls want to roll out to the right. High G loops also want to roll out to the right.

3) Hovering I am finding myself having to hold more right aileron than I think I should. Either Prop wash or torque model problems could explain that. Oddly enough, I also find it too easy with full application of ailerons to get it rolling to the right out of a hover.

4) I think it drops wings a little too easily in harriers. I have to maintain more speed in them to avoid this than I think I should.

Still, for a first cut at it, I like it :).
 
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Speaking of Foamies......

Just need to do the Horz. Stab and the graphics layout Part is done

after mulling it over I'm thinking of not doing the stripes on the bottom
I Prefer to keep stock CSs stock

Its a simple enough do it yourself add-on
especially since I'm posting a graphics-less
version to the swaps
 

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Like I said, I'm no physics expert. If anyone has any ideas how to make this model fly like the real one, which values to adjust, I'm all ears.

Madratter's first point seems to indicate that there should be less throws on the ailerons. Yet the first part of his third point indicates it's not enough. Actually his third point contradicts itself at the end, as he says. This is why physics can be so difficult, especially with models for which the creator has no real-world experience. Fun to fly? I think so. Accurate? Not my call.

I have not noticed a lateral balance problem. I've flown this at the Water Park (Night) field. The plane spawns on top of and the same direction as a crack in the cement. It's set up to take off from a narrow piece of cement between two pools. If you give it full throttle only, it goes directly over the cement crack, without veering right or left. If you pull gradually back on the stick, it climbs, loops, and crashes down on that piece of cement, between the two pools.
 
Maj. Numbskully said:
Speaking of Foamies......

Just need to do the Horz. Stab and the graphics layout Part is done

after mulling it over I'm thinking of not doing the stripes on the bottom
I Prefer to keep stock CSs stock

Its a simple enough do it yourself add-on
especially since I'm posting a graphics-less
version to the swaps
Click to expand...

Oh, yeah! That is looking really good. :D
 
jeffpn said:
Like I said, I'm no physics expert. If anyone has any ideas how to make this model fly like the real one, which values to adjust, I'm all ears.

Madratter's first point seems to indicate that there should be less throws on the ailerons. Yet the first part of his third point indicates it's not enough. Actually his third point contradicts itself at the end, as he says. This is why physics can be so difficult, especially with models for which the creator has no real-world experience. Fun to fly? I think so. Accurate? Not my call.

I have not noticed a lateral balance problem. I've flown this at the Water Park (Night) field. The plane spawns on top of and the same direction as a crack in the cement. It's set up to take off from a narrow piece of cement between two pools. If you give it full throttle only, it goes directly over the cement crack, without veering right or left. If you pull gradually back on the stick, it climbs, loops, and crashes down on that piece of cement, between the two pools.
Click to expand...


Pull back on the stick hard in a loop so that it is pulling high Gs and do a couple loops in a row. You should easily see the problem by doing that.
 
Try placing the battery at x=0 (It's now at 0.056). That seems to improve things, but the battery is off center. What would be done in the real world to counteract that?
 
Ok, so I answer my own question. The receiver and ESC are on the left side, and the battery is on the right. In a perfect world, these would offset each other. I have not assigned weights (let alone wireframe objects) to the RX and ESC, so I think it's probably fair to assume those weights are included in the overall fuse, and the battery wireframe location (and weight) gets set to 0. I am more interested in realistic performance than realistic numbers.
 
My worthless 2 cents .......
As far as I know RF does not recognize nor gives any attention to the weight of ESCs or RXs ......but it does for batteries
I suspect in the RW thats why the RX and ESC or on one side of the fuse with the heavier battery on the other to balance things out

Thats not Happening in RF
maybe a mass component of weight equal to the battery placed where the ESC is will fix that ?

Edit:
Wow ..great minds think alike :p
thats almost scary jeff if I had not gone in to RF to make sure this was still true in 6 we would have probably posted within a min of each other !
 
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Here's an AV for my earlier posted EA that only moves the weight of the battery directly over the centerline of the model. Maybe if we work on this together, we can come up with something that's flex approved! ;)
 

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Madratter said:
Oh, yeah! That is looking really good. :D
Click to expand...
TY............ wait till you see it with the normals files ,texture and more laser jet looking colors ;)
I'm real happy with the way this one is turning out
 
I have gotten a chance to fly the modified version, and getting the battery centered did help. There is still a tendency to yaw right in tight loops, probably due to gyroscopic precession of the prop. I think it is somewhat overdone but that is debatable.

I did make a couple of edits. First, personally I prefer taking out the slight offset of the elevator that allows it to fly level in upright flight. The reason, is that I would rather things be as neutral as possible for inverted flight.

Second, and much more importantly, the prop that was being used was wrong. It was using a 10x8. It should be using a 10x4.7. That makes a huge difference. I no longer have to use crazy amounts of right aileron to hover.

I tried messing with prop wash (115) and back torque (70) as was mentioned in a different post. I'm ok with it either way for what I was trying.

I still don't like how it drops wings so easily in harriers. I'm not sure of the best way to handle that in this sim. I tried reducing stall severity to 50% and that seemed to help some, but it probably has all kinds of other nasty side effects. I'm not sure.
 
That is pretty great Maj. I really like the look of the whole thing. Do you have a background in other arts? Do you paint or sculpt? Just wondering.
 
You're brand new here. Are you sick of green already?!? :p

By the way, mine is still green, too. ;) :eek:
 
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