Airplane hover - can't stop torque rolling...

jeffpn said:
Was it made to look like a small version of your full scale SBach, or an RC Sbach?
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It was set up to fly like a 3D version of a scaled down Sbach. The idea was to leverage my ownership of the actual real-world aircraft.

We did not design it to fly like a sport scale R/C model.

Jim
 
I just did an AV for the stock Yak 3D for you guys to take a look at. All I did was lengthen the ailerons to the fuse. That's it. Let me know if this is what you are looking for.
 

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Like someone had said previously, the fact that we have a Yak, and a Yak 3D in the sim, we would certainly expect the 3D version to be set up like a real 3D bird would be. Any plane labeled "3D" should easily be able to hover and harrier fairly well and be able to counteract torque roll with its default setup.

What I found really strange is the fact that we have a feature called "Airplane Hover Trainer", and now the airplane that is used as default for that feature can not perform the maneuver it is trying to train you to do! That would be similar to having an inverted hover trainer function for helis and not having helis that can produce negative pitch.

Great discussion though, and I think we are getting a lot of good input across the board here.

Thanks!
Rob
 
Yup, and as Jeffpn said to me, circusfreak makes one hell-of-a-point!!!


The bottom line is that planes like the Yak 3D and others touted as "3D" planes should NOT need any out of the box tweaking to be able to torque roll or hold against torque.

The ideal situation is that if the values, weights, characteristics used on a real world RC plane is entered into the sim, the simulated plane should behave like the real world one.

G6's improved airfoil handing brings us closer to that, but something has thrown off 3D torque rolls.

Shouldn't this be something handled in code so that "tweaks" to get planes to work properly become unnecessary, at least at this relatively important level?
 
opjose said:
Yup, and as Jeffpn said to me, circusfreak makes one hell-of-a-point!!!


The bottom line is that planes like the Yak 3D and others touted as "3D" planes should NOT need any out of the box tweaking to be able to torque roll or hold against torque.

The ideal situation is that if the values, weights, characteristics used on a real world RC plane is entered into the sim, the simulated plane should behave like the real world one.

G6's improved airfoil handing brings us closer to that, but something has thrown off 3D torque rolls.

Shouldn't this be something handled in code so that "tweaks" to get planes to work properly become unnecessary, at least at this relatively important level?
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But tweaking the base physics to make a miniature scale Yak hover is probably beyond the bounds of real world physics. Otherwise all of our model 3D yaks would be exact replicas of a scale yak. They are not. The control surfaces are substantially larger with a lot more throw on the models. Since the problem is just evident on maneuvers with little or no lift provided by airspeed and only by the prop, It's my opinion that a second look at the back torque and prop wash is in order but probably not adjusted to the point of making a scale yak hover. That can be easily handled in the wire frame.
 
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td9cowboy said:
But tweaking the base physics to make a miniature scale Yak hover is probably beyond the bounds of real world physics. .
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We are not talking about the a miniature scale yak...

The full size 3D Yak is what we are dealing with.

As CircusFreak pointed out, even the large 3D "Hover trainer" cannot do what the teaching section is trying to show you!

That's a bug....

If a small foam Yak cannot hold against torque in the real world, then the sim SHOULD do likewise...... that said, my real small foam Flatouts Cap 580 holds against torque just fine and will hover/rotate against torque.
 
opjose said:
We are not talking about the a miniature scale yak...

The full size 3D Yak is what we are dealing with.

As CircusFreak pointed out, even the large 3D "Hover trainer" cannot do what the teaching section is trying to show you!

That's a bug....

If a small foam Yak cannot hold against torque in the real world, then the sim SHOULD do likewise...... that said, my real small foam Flatouts Cap 580 holds against torque just fine and will hover/rotate against torque.
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You're missing my point, in the past we have been doing this with a flight model based on a SCALE YAK! The ailerons are scaled at the scale dimensions.
 
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td9cowboy said:
You're missing my point, in the past we have been doing this with a flight model based on a SCALE YAK! The ailerons are scaled at the scale dimensions.
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My concern is with RC aircraft in the sim, where the control surfaces reflect their real world RC counterparts.

If a plane with full size dimensions is scaled down proportionately without changing the control surface sizes to reflect RC realities and the sim exhibits appropriate behaviour, that is NOT a problem at all.

The thing is that correctly proportioned "RC" aircraft in the sim now do not show as much torque authority as before and it is often "off" enough to prevent rolls against torque where the real RC craft can.... that's a problem.
 
I am assuming the airplane hover trainer feature was pretty much left alone, and then the new physics came in to play for the airplanes, without some regression testing taking place on this feature.

Other than the torque issue, I noticed that when you are about to try hovering, it tells you to put the throttle to mid-stick, then it says "OK" in green. Click the button to start, and the plane drops like a rock and tanks into the ground.

It feels to me like new physics were implemented for the airplanes, but the settings the trainer feature used to assume are now totally off, which makes the trainer fairly useless.
 
opjose said:
My concern is with RC aircraft in the sim, where the control surfaces reflect their real world RC counterparts.

If a plane with full size dimensions is scaled down proportionately without changing the control surface sizes to reflect RC realities and the sim exhibits appropriate behaviour, that is NOT a problem at all.

The thing is that correctly proportioned "RC" aircraft in the sim now do not show as much torque authority as before and it is often "off" enough to prevent rolls against torque where the real RC craft can.... that's a problem.
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We are now in agreement. :)
 
circusfreak said:
I am assuming the airplane hover trainer feature was pretty much left alone, and then the new physics came in to play for the airplanes, without some regression testing taking place on this feature.

Other than the torque issue, I noticed that when you are about to try hovering, it tells you to put the throttle to mid-stick, then it says "OK" in green. Click the button to start, and the plane drops like a rock and tanks into the ground.

It feels to me like new physics were implemented for the airplanes, but the settings the trainer feature used to assume are now totally off, which makes the trainer fairly useless.
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In a major overhaul like this, I'm betting this slipped through the cracks. Good that you pointed out the problem. Make sure Chris or Jim verify that they saw the post and are taking action.
 
opjose said:
The real deal rotates against torque in a hover. So should the sim.
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Opjose, If you own that model you would be the perfect person to take a look at the stock configuration and give an opinion on where the problem is. Your input would probably help Jim determine if the problem is global or local.
 
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circusfreak said:
[Airplane hover trainer] I noticed that when you are about to try hovering, it tells you to put the throttle to mid-stick, then it says "OK" in green. Click the button to start, and the plane drops like a rock and tanks into the ground.
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This issue is fixed in the latest version, available now as a public beta.
 
You should! ;) Definitely let us know if you see otherwise. That was (obviously) just an unintended glitch in the last build.
 
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