Airplane hover - can't stop torque rolling...

I've been giving the cap a look and even jacking up the prop wash, lowering the back torque, and increasing the aileron throws so far is not producing good results'
 
I Can't believe that Bourke thinks these physics are real. No one would be able to learn to hover a real plane if they flew like this. He doesn't want to admit that his coders can't get it right. And yes i fly real 3D and none of my planes act like this. Extremely dissapointed in this attitude.
 
It has nothing to do with "his coders getting it right." It has to do with his opinion of what should be possible. It's easy to make RF planes hover. There are a couple different ways of doing it, that Jim has already mentioned. We just have to get Jim to come over to our side, that's all.
 
What happened to keeping it real?

This is embarrassing. You can not learn to tork roll, without first learning to hover. I can tork and hover, but I can do neather with this. And while we are at it, when was the last time you saw a plane explode, just by touching the rudder. Where you from, they got people there?
 

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I still think that all of this can be attributed to my original "thicker air" theory. While in a hover the prop is gaining more traction than in previous versions (thicker air). Prop wash over the control surfaces is less in 6 (thicker air). Higher lift and drag coefficient applied to lifting surfaces (thicker air). I think that this was a necessary change for improved heli physics that has left the airplanes out. I have tried tweaking my models and certain changes hold constant. Lower the wing overall lift, decrease prop pitch, and decrease torque curves or battery discharge curves (or reduce the new power setting). For most of my models these things get them back to their former selves except for one, my Beck Mahoney Sorceress. I love the way it flies in G5 but its utterly ridiculous in 6. If you want a good laugh try it in 6 for your self. The above fixes plus removing any default center of pressure settings get it flying again.
All of this leads me to believe that no happy medium could be found for both helis and airplanes. All airplanes I've tried fly differently between the two versions in all cases they fly less realistically in my opinion anyway. Maybe RF7 will be slanted towards airplanes again. Who knows. Just my two cents.
 
I totally agree with you here. It does seem that all the changes to the physics engine to make helis fly better have negatively impacted the airplane behaviors. I am really enjoying the heli experience in RF6 so far, but comparing it to 4.5 for airplane 3D flying it feels decidedly less realistic now. I think the overall sport flight envelope for airplanes feels similar, but once you get into high alpha, all bets are off now.

Here's hoping there is a "magic switch" they can tweak in the physics engine that will get our 3D planes flying right again.

I am a software developer by trade, and I know how you can get a narrow focus on certain things (IE : heli physics) and put the regression testing of other pieces on the backburner, but I think the ball was dropped pretty hard in that some features carried over were obviously not even tested on the shipping version (IE : airplane hover trainer).



Boof69 said:
I still think that all of this can be attributed to my original "thicker air" theory. While in a hover the prop is gaining more traction than in previous versions (thicker air). Prop wash over the control surfaces is less in 6 (thicker air). Higher lift and drag coefficient applied to lifting surfaces (thicker air). I think that this was a necessary change for improved heli physics that has left the airplanes out. I have tried tweaking my models and certain changes hold constant. Lower the wing overall lift, decrease prop pitch, and decrease torque curves or battery discharge curves (or reduce the new power setting). For most of my models these things get them back to their former selves except for one, my Beck Mahoney Sorceress. I love the way it flies in G5 but its utterly ridiculous in 6. If you want a good laugh try it in 6 for your self. The above fixes plus removing any default center of pressure settings get it flying again.
All of this leads me to believe that no happy medium could be found for both helis and airplanes. All airplanes I've tried fly differently between the two versions in all cases they fly less realistically in my opinion anyway. Maybe RF7 will be slanted towards airplanes again. Who knows. Just my two cents.
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jeffpn said:
It has nothing to do with "his coders getting it right." It has to do with his opinion of what should be possible. It's easy to make RF planes hover. There are a couple different ways of doing it, that Jim has already mentioned. We just have to get Jim to come over to our side, that's all.
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I'm already on your side. Don't worry about winning me over.

We're looking into it.

Jim
 
We'll be modifying the Yak-54 (3D) ailerons for the next patch.

We're still reviewing things to see what additional work is needed, if any.

Jim
 
Jim, thanks for getting right on this one, it can't be much fun being you when stuff like this happens. Best of luck to you and the rest of the team, I'm sure you'll get it worked out soon. As you can see with the progression of this important thread there are several ways to skin the cat. We've seen that blowing more prop air over smaller control surfaces(prop wash factor) has a pretty major impact on more than one low/no airspeed maneuver. A decrease in back torque would also really show up on these maneuvers. I think both of these variables should be considered suspects for a global adjustment. Only you guys could know what impact that might have on other flight modes on the planes and on the helis. In the case of the Yak and Sbach (scale full size control surfaces),I would take a look at a popular commercial RC model of both and look at the size of the control surfaces, mimic them in the wire frames on the two RF models and have a couple of qualified pilots fly them hard RC at reasonable deflections. Tweak the two variable settings until they are happy and you are done. Those are your new global settings. Oh make sure you didn't break anything else. And release free 3D versions of both models that match the wire frames for the purists. ;)

I don't quite have a feel for the rest of the community yet, but I really like what you've done with the helis. I also like the way the planes fly right now in a scale manor. I'm also sure that you'll have the 3D plane guys grinning soon. Ya it's a PITA to adjust all that custom content but so far the rewards have been great. If I hit on something really nice I'll be sure to share the AV to save others some time.
 
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lazer51 said:
I Can't believe that Bourke thinks these physics are real. No one would be able to learn to hover a real plane if they flew like this. He doesn't want to admit that his coders can't get it right. And yes i fly real 3D and none of my planes act like this. Extremely dissapointed in this attitude.
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This from someone new here?

Next time you may want to read how RESPONSIVE Knife Edge has been to all of us, before you go putting your foot into your mouth so quickly.... sheez....
 
Here's the Sbach with larger ailerons and the prop wash factor at 120 mainly for a little more air on the tail for flat spins. Please give it a try and give me some feed back. Don't worry about my feelings, If it's a stinker, I want to hear it!
 

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Agree with other posters

Just upgraded from RF5.5 to 6. I am a 3D pilot also -- same problem with torque rolls. I can overcome the bursts of throttle on the Yak3D and full aileron, but this is not realistic. Looking forward to a solution. I like RF6 otherwise.

--Skykingstlmo
 
Just tried Sbach aileron edit - much better

td9cowboy - I liked the Sbach edit. Much more controllable. Still had to hold a lot of aileron in hover, but much better.
 
skykingstlmo said:
td9cowboy - I liked the Sbach edit. Much more controllable. Still had to hold a lot of aileron in hover, but much better.
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Thanks for the feedback. I'm actually trying to kill two birds with one stone here. I increased the size of the ailerons to more closely represent those found on an RC model and I also increased the prop wash factor to blow some more air on the tail feathers to get a flatter flat spin which is also another low/no airspeed maneuver. To the naked eye, the tail feathers on this bird appear to be large enough to pull it off as is. Of course there is nothing scientific about my approach, just looking for something real.
 
We modified the Yak-54 (3D)--used in the airplane hover trainer--to make the ailerons extend all the way to the fuse, giving them more authority in a hover. Download the new public beta version 6.00.027 (see announcement) to get it.
 
Ryan, should we assume that there won't be a stock release of an sbach 3D and we will be taking care of that one in the form of an AV on the swaps? I've had one posted in this thread for a while looking for some feedback from users and awaiting a decision from you guys before posting it to the swaps. Sometimes firm decisions and useful feedback can be a little hard to come by around here.
 
td9cowboy said:
Ryan, should we assume that there won't be a stock release of an sbach 3D and we will be taking care of that one in the form of an AV on the swaps? I've had one posted in this thread for a while looking for some feedback from users and awaiting a decision from you guys before posting it to the swaps. Sometimes firm decisions and useful feedback can be a little hard to come by around here.
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Steve,

We'll help each other out. I'll fly your Sbach AV when I get the chance and you can fly any glider and try to find updraft with dynamic thermals turned on. :D (Actually you should fly my Ascent because I like it getting attention)
 
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