G4 first impressions

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:p int2str, you beat me to it. Just got it in the mail a minute ago. Time to open the radio up & fit a piece of fule tubing over the throttle tensioner. After that, install & have fun. :D
 
jbourke said:
We never discuss future projects in public. There are a lot of reasons.
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While I can understand that to some degree, I hope that you are aware that this is pretty frustrating from a customer's point of view. Something like a public release plan or a list of planned features is common even for freeware projects like Eclipse or Blender. Everybody understands that plans can change and features can be dropped or moved to future releases.
On the other hand, when deciding between similar products, announced features can make the difference. Also, most people prefer to buy from a communicative developer if they have the choice.

G4 is a pretty strong step forward in a lot of areas and you'll notice that many of the features (like the console for example) are clear first steps toward a larger goal. That's really all I can offer right now.
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Please understand that paying 200 bucks for a console and other "steps towards a larger goal" seems hard to justify, if it's not even clear what this goal is and if it will be reached for G4.

If obviously the "big" new features in G4 are limited to better graphics, flexible gear and water, while some of us hoped for so much more, the announcement of "not yet finished, but soon to come" features would make it easier for me to decide whether I should update to G4 now or better wait if one of the competitors will implement features that I hoped for.

I mean, water is cool and all, but I fear it's a little bit like the night flying. It's nice to have, but I rarely used it after the first fascination had left. Especially since creation of water photofields is so severely limited.

To make this clear, my main hope for G4 were:

1) improvement of the airfield editor: uneven ground, depth buffer based on polygons, definition of fraction etc. for each polygon, alpha stencil for photofields, import of 3D objects, better user interface etc.

2) improvement of flight model: especially wrong/inconsistent calculation of effectiveness of control surfaces, more consistent behavior of factors like the strength multiplier etc., better support for exotic setups (prop in the middle of the plane, coax helis, autogyros etc.)

3) more/better inter object/aircraft features. E.g. towing of sailplanes, lifting/dropping objects with helis (also as competition)

4) general user interface improvements, especially for the aircraft editor. Mainly basic things like moving/duplicating components. But a complete rework of some things would also be nice. E.g. look like FSOne handles the servo/mixer setup.

6) gfx improvements (especially removal of transparency/shadow bugs, but also features as bump mapping, maybe motion blur or any other way to improve background scrolling, better autozoom features like considering of object size)

7) support for free/inexpensive 3D tools (e.g. direct export from Blender or AC3D).

With these things implemented, I'd not hesitate a second to order G4. Without at least a hint, what of this will be implemented in G4, I find it hard to convince me to order it right now.
 
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0xdeadbeef said:
I mean, water is cool and all, but I fear it's a little bit like the night flying. It's nice to have, but I rarely used it after the first fascination had left. Especially since creation of water photofields is so severely limited.

To make this clear, my main hope for G4 were:

1) improvement of the airfield editor: uneven ground, depth buffer based on polygons, definition of fraction etc. for each polygon, alpha stencil for photofields, import of 3D objects, better user interface etc.

2) improvement of flight model: especially wrong/inconsistent calculation of effectiveness of control surfaces, more consistent behavior of factors like the strength multiplier etc., better support for exotic setups (prop in the middle of the plane, coax helis, autogyros etc.)

3) more/better inter object/aircraft features. E.g. towing of sailplanes, lifting/dropping objects with helis (also as competition)

4) general user interface improvements, especially for the aircraft editor. Mainly basic things like moving/duplicating components. But a complete rework of some things would also be nice. E.g. look like FSOne handles the servo/mixer setup.

6) gfx improvements (especially removal of transparency/shadow bugs, but also features as bump mapping, maybe motion blur or any other way to improve background scrolling, better autozoom features like considering of object size)

7) support for free/inexpensive 3D tools (e.g. direct export from Blender or AC3D).

With these things implemented, I'd not hesitate a second to order G4. Without at least a hint, what of this will be implemented in G4, I find it hard to convince me to order it right now.
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EXACTLY!
 
jbourke said:
We never discuss future projects in public. There are a lot of reasons.

You'll just have to wait to see what the future holds.
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Jim,

You keep saying this and it requires a response.

Short version:
Regardless of your reasons I believe this approach is a mistake.

Long version:
If the head of a political party when asked "what are your new policies?" said "We never discuss future plans in public. Trust us." would you vote to re-elect them? Even if they'd done well? This is very similar to what you're asking current G3.5 owners to do - vote with their wallets.

At the moment you're only able to get away with this because your simulator has some rather unique features and overall does r/c best. Others appear to be catching up though. (From what I understand, and I may be wrong, the newer commercial sims that do r/c well don't have heavily customized aircraft or field editing yet with the ability to share the creations the way Realflight and a couple of the other older sims do. Multiplayer is also a strong suit for Realflight)

Also, note that you have discussed future directions in public before and it backfired (GMax editor). As I noted before this didn't backfire because you communicated your future directions but because you didn't communicate them (or rather your ability to deliver them) well. You need to be clear about what will definitely be in a future release and what you're hoping will be there but will or won't make it depending on circumstance. Of course I realize hindsight is 20/20, but I don't think this is beyond you. If you do, hire someone for whom it's not.

Now as for other reasons I can only speculate since you haven't elaborated on them.

I can only assume one of the major ones is so that you don't give your competitors the ability to beat you to implementing those features. I'd argue that this too is not a good reason and here's why: 1) You ask for feedback on your product in and desired features etc. are discussed publicly enough that any competitor already has access to this information 2) Your product does have the edge at the moment when it comes to customization and this flexibility will allow you to stay ahead for a while unless your software gets buggy.

Finally it seems to me that your relationship with Great Planes and other 3rd parties are rather restrictive. You can't seem to keep the Realflight web site up to date, and I find it hard to believe that's just not a priority for you. it's difficult not to assume that you have some kind of non-disclosure agreement but obviously if you do you can't talk about it. If I'm right I'd have to say you really need to look at renegotiating this if you have any option to.

Don't get me wrong. It's your company and you can run it as you choose. However there are consequences to any business decision and I'd hate to see those consequences catch up with you. Realflight is a good product and could be a great one....but not without some big changes and shifts in attitude. Change is always painful.

Just my opinion of course - I don't have a company and a livelihood riding on how right or wrong I am. You do.
 
Sammy, I have to ask the question; do the analogies, scenarios, what-ifs, either or, neither nor, obsessive/compulsive minutiae have any real relevance? :D

It seems you WOULD buy G4, if only KE would do this, and this, and this, and this, and this for you! Perhaps they could custom build your own sim? :eek:

Isn't Great Planes/RealFlight responsible for their OWN website? :rolleyes:

Charles
 
This is just all a matter of opinion guys. I think some people have brought up some very good points, but personally I would still like to get G4, it's just not possible for me right now. I'll probably have to wait until around Christmas to get my hands on it.
 
r1derbike said:
Sammy, I have to ask the question; do the analogies, scenarios, what-ifs, either or, neither nor, obsessive/compulsive minutiae have any real relevance? :D

Charles
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If the KE staff isn't so otherwise occupied that they would not bother responding to Sammy's post, well IMHO they are not working at what they should be doing.

Addressing all of this to Jim and company is rather pointless.

You'll NEVER see the marketing people posting here.

As with any organization, they'll do whatever works for them, and if something doesn't work, a focus group gets created to study changes...


These forums serve a purpose, but that purpose is NOT to determine the marketing tactics used by Greatplanes and KE.

So yeah, it's pretty irrelevant.
 
G4 Impression

I Got mine a few days ago. I have to say I'm a big flight sim fan, but this, I can't get off of it. Graphics are great and run real smooth. I have only one gripe, and it's not an important one to most. All the technology they put into this sim, why couldn't they make the sounds better. For exam. The jets don't sound at all like they really do. The nextstar gas sounds very digital sounding but heres the weird thing. The nextstar electric sounds more like a nextstar gas and when winding down the throttle on it, it sound just like a real turbine engine. They need to put the sound in the right area. But as I said, no biggy. I mostly agree with what everyone is saying. But, still quite amazing to me.
 
Op, given the nature of Sammy's queries and blather, does it really surprise you that KE hasn't answered yet?

I'm sure they have a full time employee that does nothing but peruse these forums to answer each and every question and comment, smart-assed or not. :rolleyes:

So yeah, it does become irrelevant, depending on the questions.

Charles
 
If you look at most other software designers, you'll see that they're proud enough of their features that they will constantly plug them in ads, online, television, anywhere they can get.

Imagine the creators of, say, Halo 3 for example deciding to NOT tell anyone what features will be in the game, no updates on the progress of the development, no screenshots, no articles, nothing.

The Halo series, like the Realflight series, has a fairly large and devoted fan base, so many people would still buy it regardless. However, by marketing the game and being open with their information, they attract a far larger number of customers. And remember, Halo is just a $60 game; Realflight is a $200 piece of simulation software. You need all the help you can get when selling something especially at that cost.

Yes, I realize there are differences between simulation software and a standard fanboy game. Mainly, that Realflight is not exactly a mass-market program; more of a niche market.

But look at MANY, many other designers; they will post on multiple forums and have technical crew ready to answer questions from fans of the program, and they will use their input to decide what features will be included. Certainly, it's up to the designers and programmers in the end, but customer input plays a large part in the direction that the software takes.

Why? Because without happy customers, their sales will falter.

Thing is, I've noticed that we don't really have a lot of people here who are listening to some excellent suggestions, from many of us.

We know very little about upcoming releases until they're finished.

The RC world in general doesn't know what's coming up with new releases either; if I was the Knife Edge team, I'd be advertising upcoming sims in any magazine I could; letting everyone know release dates, new features, showing screenshots of new planes and fields, saying what sets Realflight apart from the rest WAY before the software is actually released.

My fear is that other companies will learn this quickly, and Realflight will falter. Which would really be a shame, because I've used all of the major sims, and Realflight is by far my favorite.


Sorry for rambling, but I just want Knife Edge to do well with upcoming releases.

1. Listen to your customers. They have some excellent suggestions that would benefit all of us.

2. Advertise and let people know what's coming, or other companies will beat you to it.

3. Discuss projects online and get input from your fan base; another plus will be that once more people start seeing discussions, the more people will take interest.

4. Bring a few more people online to answer questions, give support, and be seen. Don't leave technical support up to the customers.

5. Update your website daily with not only news, but more information on everything available. Clicking on "Products" brings you to this:

Current Products:
RealFlight G3.5
Expansion Pack 1
Expansion Pack 2
Add-Ons #1
Add-Ons #2
Add-Ons #3
Add-Ons #4
Add-Ons #5

I don't see Expansion Pack 3 or 4, or G4 on the list. People have to go to Tower Hobbies to find information on them!


Anyway, I wish the KE team the best. :)
 
r1derbike said:
Sammy, I have to ask the question; do the analogies, scenarios, what-ifs, either or, neither nor, obsessive/compulsive minutiae have any real relevance? :D
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Apparently they're bait for bored people to launch ill thought out attacks, whine about others stating their opinions, or just put up hateful ill thought out jokes comparing me to a "retard" complete with an insult to anyone who competes in the Special Olympics. (The same fools who do this then add their own complaints)

r1derbike said:
It seems you WOULD buy G4, if only KE would do this, and this, and this, and this, and this for you! Perhaps they could custom build your own sim? :eek:
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If you had a look at some of the other threads on this board instead of bashing me without knowing much about me you'd realize I HAVE already ordered G4 and it's on its way.

So how about instead of bashing someone for stating their opinion you either skip what they're saying altogether or actually get a clue and read (or at least even skim) the lot.

What is it exactly that makes people here so willing to ridicule others for thinking or acting differently to how they would?
 
r1derbike said:
Op, given the nature of Sammy's queries and blather, does it really surprise you that KE hasn't answered yet?
Charles
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I've removed the rest because it's a childish rant. Charles, grow up. Seriously, you're coming across as a nasty little bully from junior high.
 
opjose said:
These forums serve a purpose, but that purpose is NOT to determine the marketing tactics used by Greatplanes and KE.

So yeah, it's pretty irrelevant.
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*sigh* This is how NOT to answer a user's question.

This is what I'm talking about when I say this place is unfriendly. You may not have added your own abuse but Charles put his point of view quite obnoxiously by including personal attacks, and you've added your support to his point of view, which then implies tacit acceptance and agreement with his abuse. This is how people are turned off using the board. There's no need for this kind of schoolyard bully behaviour.

As to to the points you and Charles have made:

1) KE brought up their marketing policy on this board. I did not.

2) A direct consequence of their stated policy is that they are unable to give users information on which to make a sound choice of whether or not to upgrade.

3) If this release of Realflight, or the next, or the next....doesn't sell well due to these policies, guess who suffers? The users and the software manufacturer, not the guy who chose not to buy the sim.

4) Jim's a big boy, and so are the rest of the admins. They can choose whether to reply to my post privately, publicly or not at all.

If that's irrelevant here, I'm an aardvark.

Perhaps people would be happier if I simply didn't post here. That appears to be the goal of these petty childish attacks.
 
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Perhaps people would be happier if I simply didn't post here. That appears to be the goal of these petty childish attacks.

I kind of agree but come on now!
 
Sammy, you have entirely too much time on your hands. I don't have the desire or the time to peruse reams of points and counterpoints.

Your recent posts/rants come off sounding like a lot of obsessive minutiae. That's my take on it, whether you like it or not.

Charles
 
r1derbike said:
Sammy, you have entirely too much time on your hands.
I don't have the desire or the time to peruse reams of points and counterpoints.
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You have plenty of time on your hands to criticize me, but not enough time to read or actually make a counterpoint. Brilliant! Since you admit you have nothing to say why are you posting exactly? To give an opinion on something you haven't bothered to read, and don't wish to spend the time making counterpoints about?...and you have the audacity to criticize me for the relevance of my posts?

Further, you criticize me for spending time countering your childish insults, yet you antagonize me with more. What does that do exactly? Make you feel like a big man? Grow up.

r1derbike said:
Your recent posts/rants come off sounding like a lot of obsessive minutiae. That's my take on it, whether you like it or not.
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Did I say somewhere in my post that I was running for office? I couldn't care less what you think of my posts Charles. You're on the other side of the planet, and I'm not looking for your vote, your love, or your money.

What I don't like is foolish hypocritical and childish bullying behaviour such as coming on this board, not even reading what people have to say, then spouting abuse.

You've demonstrated that you haven't read what I have to say by failing to realize that I'd already purchased G4. Either you're unable to comprehend what I'm saying, or I suspect more likely you've not bothered to read it. Instead I'd guess you've skimmed a few paragraphs you didn't like and decided to post you insults. You might one day like to try actually reading what someone says and constructing an argument about facts and issues instead of petty character assassinations and childish insults.

If all you have to say about someone's post is that it's a rant, how about taking some of your own advice and not posting? You have quite literally nothing to contribute. You say "That's my take on it whether you like it or not". I say I have a point of view, and some thoughts and whether you like them or not, you shouldn't feel the need to suppress them, discourage me from posting or abuse/insult/intimidate me when I do.

My counterpoint to "You don't have to buy G4" is "You don't have to read my posts". Both arguments are equally flawed since what happens to this community is affected by G4 whether individuals buy it or not, just as people posting affects the community whether you choose to read the post or not.
 
Sammy Yousef said:
*sigh* This is how NOT to answer a user's question.

Perhaps people would be happier if I simply didn't post here. That appears to be the goal of these petty childish attacks.
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You sorta took it the wrong way.

I'm not questioning the validity of your post or observations, merely making my own observation that no organization is going to base their marketing strategy from an on-line forum discussion no matter how well ( or poorly ) intentioned.

That makes all of this rather academic no matter how accurate or inaccurate it may be.

From my standpoint it's amusing to see people come here and rant ( though don't they do this on ALL boards??? ) often DEMANDING action of some sort.

We may at times get the ear of the developement staff here, but I hardly expect to find marketing or management staff paying a lick of attention.

While Jim and company may post, or respond to a post, many of the proper recipients for this sort of thing are "elsewhere".

I may find that I feel I got ripped off with G4 ( I'm still awaiting delivery ), but my posting it here would be irrelevant if I felt this way.
 
r1derbike said:
Sammy you're even obsessed about my observations. Say goodnight, Sammy...
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Yep I'm obsessed with you. That's it. I must have a pyschological problem. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that you've abused, insulted and patronized me, or that your criticisms are inconsistent, ill thought out and not based on what I've actually said and done.

Take some responsibility for your own actions.
 
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