G4 first impressions

[Sammy Yousef]

Well that no matter your or anyone else's intent with posts about how KE "should" do things, it's pointless to this forum.

It tends to come off as sour grapes, etc. so those who are having a fairly good experience end up getting a bit annoyed with those that feel that somehow they KNOW what KE should do...

What a defeatist attitude.

You're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to mine. No one's entitled to go around insulting and abusing people like a childish git.

If you can think of a better place to speak where KE will listen by all means tell me. However you've got no right to ask me to give up trying to reach them just because you have.

Even if you or anyone else did, it's just going to fall on deaf ears here.

Take this from someone who's been down this road before ( though I have to say that to their credit KE does pay attention to the general consensus from what I've seen... )

Well if the opinions aren't aired, how is KE going to listen to general consensus? Perhaps if MORE people complain rather than less, we might see some action. This isn't going to happen if each time someone complains they're abused and ridiculued. As far as I'm concerned you've just argued against your own position.

Take it from someone who's worked with software for years. If you create an environment where it's acceptable for people to be abused for complaining, pretty soon no one complains and nothing improves.

I still can't believe that anyone is defending people's bullying here, or think this is the way to run a user community. Do you have any idea how this crud comes off to a new user or someone who stumbles upon the page? Do you think they'll rush out to be a part of this?

 

[Norton]

Once again, if you do not like it don't buy it. STOP the speculation and get on with it!

 

[Sammy Yousef]

Once again, if you do not like it don't buy it. STOP the speculation and get on with it!

Why are you so insistent on telling other people not to express their views?

If you don't like the thread, don't read it. You've got zero right to dictate what other people discuss.

Stop acting like you own or moderate these forums.

 

[Sammy Yousef]

I just got permission to post a Private message I received a day or so ago from the author on the condition that he remains anonymous. You can only ever have my assurance that it's genuine, so I won't enter into arguments about that. I'll post it in full, without identifying this indivdual in any way except to say he's someone I respected long before this thread started.

Message reads:

I have been following your comments about G4. I haven't posted much here in a long time. I'm kind of getting sick of this forum. For a short time I felt like commenting on the G4 threads, but after reading your posts, there is nothing for me to say. Every thing you have said, I agree with. Right down to the apparent devotion by opjose. Even his posts are getting ridiculous. They used to be so good and helpful.

First, the G4 stuff rubbed me wrong. But some of these responses you've been getting is enough to seal the deal. This has to be one of the most immature forums I've seen and the lack of admin action is pretty sad. The handicapped comment is still there???!!!
I guess I could post "Hey I agree with you, Sammy" but I think we both know where that would lead..."You don't HAVE to buy G4"....etc. Like they just skipped over what you said.
I'm sure there are alot more out there that agree with you. I just know how frustrating posts like that can be. Even if I disagreed with you, no one on either side of the argument presented a better case than you did.
Well done.

 

[Johndou]

Okay first of all what's with the colours? I'm not sure what effect you were aiming for here, but it's very distracting.

Why would you conclude ... why would you want to conclude <?> ... that the colors have any meaning whatsoever? Other then to get your attention. Sorry that you found them distracting. I thought they were kind of fun and added a little whimsy to the message ... but, just like wrestling a pig, everyone has their own opinion.

You're entitled to disagree, but you're not the one being insulted. I'll handle it as I feel appropriate.

No arguement from me ... please do. Just not here! I'm beginning to understand why you get picked on so much ... you missed my point entirely and instead you put your own little spin on my words to sling barbs at others.

Perhaps, but your analogy is a little flawed since if we extend it ...

I'm not extending it ... and I certainly hope that your not either. The analogy was not pointed at the "FORUM"!

I'm not even sure how you could've gotten the idea that it was since all of my comments were pointed towards you and a few others who have been slinging insults back and forth. So, let me make it perfectly clear this time ... my comments are directed towards you in this case, no one else, not the forum , not KE, and NOT anyone else. Just Sammy Yousef.

Call me a fool but I happen to think there happen to be some nice people in this particular pit, and I'm not prepared to do that just yet.

Oh, but you just did ...

Have you ever considered that if the forum can be compared to a pig's mud pit, criticizing people for defending themselves against insults shouldn't be your first priority and actually contributes to the hostility of the environment? In other words how about creating an environment in this forum where a user isn't stomped on so rudely for expressing opinions, instead of further antagonising them? You're like a lazy teacher that decides to punish both bully and victim for fighting instead of dealing with the bully's behaviour which is the trigger. In the end this just creates resentment all round and resolves nothing.

No, I have never considered that ... since I didn't compare the forum to a pig pit, you did!

The only hostility in THIS environment is coming from you! Jeeezzze Sammy, get a clue!

Alright, call me a lazy teacher. Call me what you want, just don't call me late for dinner. I stopped caring a long time ago about what "other" people want to call me. I happen to think that anyone who retaliates against a bully has just lowered themselves to the same level as that bully and deverses the same considerations.

 

[r1derbike]

Sammy, you should really cut-out the abused, insulted, downtrodden, harassed, misunderstood, never respected, nobody's gonna disagree with me or I'll just claim I'm being abused, harassed, picked-on or insulted, broken record.

When anyone speaks their mind about you, or what you've posted, it's the same old scratched, broken record, record, record.

A new modus operandi is in order. You're taking even good-natured comments way too personally, and Johndou is right on with his hostility assessment.

Just think about it...

Charles

 

[Sammy Yousef]

Your colours got my attention alright. Not in a good way.

No arguement from me ... please do. Just not here! I'm beginning to understand why you get picked on so much ... you missed my point entirely and instead you put your own little spin on my words to sling barbs at others.

Why not here? Where exactly? Should I talk to the walls? These forums are EXACTLY where Realflight users should be discussing their concerns about the product. There isn't a more appropriate place.

You're just another bully who insists on jumping on that little bandwagon.

I'm not extending it ... and I certainly hope that your not either. The analogy was not pointed at the "FORUM"!

For someone who insists I'm missing the point you're working awfully hard at missing mine. Your analogy was terrible, and was nothing more than a poorly disguised dig.

I'm not even sure how you could've gotten the idea that it was since all of my comments were pointed towards you and a few others who have been slinging insults back and forth.

Before stepping into the slinging match, I suggest you take a look at who slung what before picking a side or picking on one person. If you start slinging the insults yourself, expect some back.

So, let me make it perfectly clear this time ... my comments are directed towards you in this case, no one else, not the forum , not KE, and NOT anyone else. Just Sammy Yousef.

Thanks for the clarification. Would have been nice if you'd have been honest in the first place. A few sentences up you're saying me "and a few others", now it's just me. At least try to be consistent.

As it turns out extending your analogy was not only a good way to show how silly your argument was but an excellent way to bring your real meaning out. But after all. What else could it have been? If you were really interested in any way about people being hostile and slinging insults you'd look back on who initiated it instead of focusing on me. Given your lack of siincerity do you really expect me to turn around and apologise for supposedly twisting your words?

The only hostility in THIS environment is coming from you! Jeeezzze Sammy, get a clue!

I'm not the one repeatedly telling people what they may and may not discuss here (basically telling people to shut up), making dishonest and snide attacks. I certainly didn't start the name calling etc.

Alright, call me a lazy teacher. Call me what you want, just don't call me late for dinner. I stopped caring a long time ago about what "other" people want to call me. I happen to think that anyone who retaliates against a bully has just lowered themselves to the same level as that bully and deverses the same considerations.

Well you're just plain wrong. If you allow people to push you around, you're complicit in their bullying. There's a heck of a difference between bullying back, and defending against the bullying. I have never ever told anyone what they may or may not discuss here, or that they must have a particular opinion in order to express it on the forums.

Just look at your wold history if you don't believe me. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". Now we aren't fighting a war here, but telling me I'm as bad as a bully for defending against one is a misleading, destructive and low thing to do.

No, I have never considered that ... since I didn't compare the forum to a pig pit, you did!

Actually if you take a look at what you said you told me that if I sunk to the level of the bullies it was like wrestling a pig. Doesn't that make some of the people on this forum pigs. Of course your real intent was to make it sound like you were being a nice helpful chap whilst telling me to just shut up along with a handful of others here. Back pedal all you like but I'm not the one who used the analogy.

In case I haven't made it clear I will not be bullied, I won't shut up on a public forum just because my point of view isn't glowing, or because my point of view disagrees with those of others.

Have a lovely day.

 

[Sammy Yousef]

A new modus operandi is in order.

<sarcasm> Thank you for your sincere kindness and advice. </sarcasm> I'll take lessons on what my modus operandi should be from you...when hell freezes over.

Ever considered giving the sarcasm a miss? I forgot, you're by your own admission easily amused.

 

[r1derbike]

Goodnight, Sammy...

Charles

 

[Sammy Yousef]

Goodnight, Sammy...

Charles

Sweet dreams Charles.

 

[opjose]

What a defeatist attitude.

Wait a second, that's coming from someone who has been telling us how "horrid" G4 and KE is, even before you've received your package?

Sheessh

What - ARE - you expecting?

A message from KE saying that they will do exactly what you say?

That's not gonna happen, no not never.

You're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to mine.

And you know what they say....

No one's entitled to go around insulting and abusing people like a childish git.

Aw, c'mon, that's exactly what forums are for!

I see a bunch of postings in this thread doing just that. Wait even some from you.

If you can think of a better place to speak where KE will listen by all means tell me.

Well believe it or not Snail Mail tends to get people's attention now-a-days.

It's so rare that anyone actually writes that you may just get somewhere this way.

However you've got no right to ask me to give up trying to reach them just because you have.

Go ahead and reach them, but posting here all this stuff is never-the-less pointless and just causing more abuse to be heaped your way, why not try another avenue?

Well if the opinions aren't aired, how is KE going to listen to general consensus?

Sure, but complaining here goes no where...

You could just as redily call up your local post office and complain to them about G3/G4 and get exactly the same results.

Perhaps if MORE people complain rather than less, we might see some action.

You're assuming we all agree with everything you have to say, and are somehow unified in some sort of grievance.

I don't recall that being the case. Heck I haven't received G4 yet, so I'm reserving my judgement. I prefer to wait before formulating my own black clouds.

You've also assumed that this is the place for all of this.

This is a "user" forum which unfortunately many newbies fail to understand.

This isn't going to happen if each time someone complains they're abused and ridiculued.

Heh, not to be nasty, but maybe the complainers will go away and we can get back to G3/G4 "support" and plane developement.

As far as I'm concerned you've just argued against your own position.

Yup sometimes I'll switch sides on an arguement just to see where it goes. I've done that with you and others... or sometimes because someone makes a good point.

Should I disagree with everything you have to say instead?

If you create an environment where it's acceptable for people to be abused for complaining, pretty soon no one complains and nothing improves.

Heh, what's that quote...

"If we don't answer the phone maybe everyone will stop calling us..."

I still can't believe that anyone is defending people's bullying here, or think this is the way to run a user community.

You mean someone "RUNS" this madhouse?

I'd like to speak to the man behind the curtain please!



Metaphorically, you're not participating in a forum unless you've been told to F'off every week or so.... and I should know!

Do you have any idea how this crud comes off to a new user or someone who stumbles upon the page? Do you think they'll rush out to be a part of this?

Yeah I would hope they would get back to G3/G4 instead of long haranges on how somehow they've been wronged, especially sight unseen.

---

I'm glad you saw fit to post a private message from someone who agrees with you.

My GOSH I'm even singled out! WOW!

Do you see this as somehow justifying the ceaseless tirade?


You made a point initially, and some did not agree with you.

Now as I see it the "abuse" is the result of going on and on about it as if you've been hurt by all of it, and expecting agreement.

Wouldn't it have been far more constructive to start a more positive thread ( as others have done here in the past ) along the lines of "Suggested improvements ". KE has actually responded to a few of these.

 

[Cold Wing]

So, Hi guys. Haven't posted for a while. Has anyone tried out the new G4? I would love to hear any first impressions anyone might have. I am considering buying another G3(I share one with my flying buddy) or G4(wont be able to multifly with G3 buddy). Will my 2.8 gig computer with 1gig ram and 512vid card run it as well as it runs G3?

 

[Sammy Yousef]

Wait a second, that's coming from someone who has been telling us how "horrid" G4 and KE is, even before you've received your package?

No way am I letting you get away with that one. Show me where I said either G4 or KE is horrid!!! I said there are specific problems and issues that I believe should be addressed.

Sheessh

What - ARE - you expecting?

A message from KE saying that they will do exactly what you say?

That's not gonna happen, no not never.

What I'm expecting is that users stop telling me to shut up on the KE board simply for expressing a view or concern, or that this isn't the place to express those concerns. What do you want me to do. Go onto other public forums that aren't read by KE staff and state my case. That'd be 1) less than useless 2) damaging.

Funnily enough I am expecting some kind of response from KE. No I don't expect that response to be "we'll do exactly what you say". However acknowledgemetn of the issues, workarounds, perhaps putting some of these concerns in front of management. What else are the forums for???

Aw, c'mon, that's exactly what forums are for!

No they're not and they shouldn't be. While I'm glad you added those smileys, the fact that you don't see this as a problem is disturbing. The other poster was right. There was a time when this kind of behaviour was not the norm on the board.

I see a bunch of postings in this thread doing just that. Wait even some from you.

Yes, I'll retaliate when abused or insulted. I've explained why above.

Well believe it or not Snail Mail tends to get people's attention now-a-days.

It's so rare that anyone actually writes that you may just get somewhere this way.

Good positive suggestion. Much better than telling people to shut up on the board, or telling them if they point out flaws with the product or the rules around it (EULA, upgrades, marketing) that it's of no use.

Go ahead and reach them, but posting here all this stuff is never-the-less pointless and just causing more abuse to be heaped your way, why not try another avenue?

I shouldn't need to try another avenue. I shouldn't expect to have abuse come my way for expressing a view here.

NOR SHOULD ANYONE ELSE.

Another thing I shouldn't need to do is EXPLAIN why tossing insults at someone for expressing their opinion shouldn't be tolerated. Most people figure this out pretty early on.

Sure, but complaining here goes no where...

You could just as redily call up your local post office and complain to them about G3/G4 and get exactly the same results.

What a load of rubbish. These are G3/G4 forums. This IS a legitimate place to give feedback on the products. Comparing posting about G3/G4 on a G3/G4 forum to complaining at a post office is ABSURD. It's more like going to a postal system discussion forum and pointing out that there's a flaw in the system (eg. it's easy to post dangerous goods).

So what exactly is the point of using this board again?

You're assuming we all agree with everything you have to say, and are somehow unified in some sort of grievance.

Again words in my mouth. Where did I say that? Where did I say that these were anything but my own observations (and the observation of one other indivdual who PM'd me)? I said if you have grievances and have decided posting them here is pointless that's your choice but you shouldn't be trying to compell or pressure me to do the same.

I don't recall that being the case. Heck I haven't received G4 yet, so I'm reserving my judgement. I prefer to wait before formulating my own black clouds.

First, there are others that feel the same way. Google realflight g3.5 upgrade. However I've never said everyone feels the same way. Just that it shouldn't be accepted behaviour that users are BLASTED for stating their opinion here.

Second, I've only drawn conclusions based on what Knife Edge has stated, and based on videos I've seen.

Third, one of my problems with the system is that I may well have to wait weeks before I receive G4

You've also assumed that this is the place for all of this.

Perhaps I should go to the post office instead?

This is a "user" forum which unfortunately many newbies fail to understand.

However KE staff can and do stop in here.

What have newbies got to do with anything? I know what the nature of the forum is. I don't need the arrogance or consdescending tone that implies I'm ignorant of the nature of the forum. Do you think saying this is going to garner any favours with newbies? I'm increasingly finding your entire tone to be arrogant and self righteous.

Heh, not to be nasty, but maybe the complainers will go away and we can get back to G3/G4 "support" and plane developement.

Well last I checked this isn't the forum for support and development. The designer's corner is there for that. This is the "general discussion" forum, and the topic is not G4 in depth analysis, it's "G4 first impressions"

You find no irony in this, or the fact that you are complaining about complainers?

By supporting an unfriendly attitude on the forum you are in fact being quite nasty, albeit passively.

Yup sometimes I'll switch sides on an arguement just to see where it goes. I've done that with you and others... or sometimes because someone makes a good point.

Should I disagree with everything you have to say instead?

Oh be honest. I won't go through a blow by blow but anyone reading will see that you brought up the point in support of your own argument. It happened to backfire.

Metaphorically, you're not participating in a forum unless you've been told to F'off every week or so.... and I should know!

Can I quote you on that?

Perhaps we should suggest KE put that right on the box,

What's your argument? That I should shut up and stop complaining and that its a good thing that people who complain here are told to _____ off?

Yeah I would hope they would get back to G3/G4 instead of long haranges on how somehow they've been wronged, especially sight unseen.

So the points I've brought up are imaginary or are a fiction? I've laid out the positives and negatives and explained why I bought the sim. My commentary has been based on KE's own material and other user info (and clips) posted here.

I'm glad you saw fit to post a private message from someone who agrees with you.

My GOSH I'm even singled out! WOW!

You're singled out because you've gone from being a bloke that will go out of his way to help, to one who believes users aren't part of the forum unless they're being told to _____ off and one that's being a blind yes man when it comes to KE policy.

Do you see this as somehow justifying the ceaseless tirade?

You made a point initially, and some did not agree with you.

Now as I see it the "abuse" is the result of going on and on about it as if you've been hurt by all of it, and expecting agreement.

This board has become an unfriendly place. I'm expecting some of you to get a clue and clean up your act. I'm expecting people to stop telling me what to think or express in a forum called "General discussion". I'm expecting people here to have some manners and be honest and constructive and to be able to have an open discussion without being told to shut the _____ up by people who don't agree.

Wouldn't it have been far more constructive to start a more positive thread ( as others have done here in the past ) along the lines of "Suggested improvements ". KE has actually responded to a few of these.

Go back and read what I've read. There have been plenty of positive suggestions. They've been ignored. Certainly more positive than telling people to _____ off.

If you think this is such a damned pointless tirade, why do you, or the rest of you for that matter, keep adding to it?

<much sarcasm>But I'm so very sorry</sarcasm> that I'm discussing things you deem don't belong here, or that not all my points are wondeful positive glowing positives. Apparently I should be spending my time abusing other users I don't agree with or discussing plane design in the general user forum. How the hell does any sane person justify the hypocrisy!?

Disgusting!

 

[Cold Wing]

Please. Could everyone who is posting off topic comments please use the private messages option located at the upper right corner of the screen. I have scrolled through seven pages of posts and very few have anything to do with "first impressions".

Thank You

 

[MadMonkey]

This board has become an unfriendly place. I'm expecting some of you to get a clue and clean up your act. I'm expecting people to stop telling me what to think or express in a forum called "General discussion". I'm expecting people here to have some manners and be honest and constructive and to be able to have an open discussion without being told to shut the _____ up by people who don't agree.

Why not take your own advice and ignore what you don't like?

Remember... you don't have to read the comments if you don't want to. So rather than getting your panties in a bunch, you could always ignore the comments you don't deem necessary.

Heck, just put everyone else on your "Ignore" list and talk to yourself. You seem to enjoy seeing thousands of your own words on the screen...

 

[Sammy Yousef]

Why not take your own advice and ignore what you don't like?

Remember... you don't have to read the comments if you don't want to. So rather than getting your panties in a bunch, you could always ignore the comments you don't deem necessary.

Heck, just put everyone else on your "Ignore" list and talk to yourself. You seem to enjoy seeing thousands of your own words on the screen...

What no derogatory generalized insult towards the disabled this time? Are you feeling well?

Exactly how many ways and how many times can people here tell me to shut up?

Bozos

 

[Cold Wing]

Sammy-look for PM(private message)

 

[MadMonkey]

What no derogatory generalized insult towards the disabled this time? Are you feeling well?

or just put up hateful ill thought out jokes comparing me to a "retard" complete with an insult to anyone who competes in the Special Olympics. (The same fools who do this then add their own complaints)

Would people like me to start a new thread now? Would you rather I title it "Knife Edge Marketing" or "Insult Sammy here"? Perhaps "Insult Sammy and anyone with a disability here"?

That really got to you, didn't it

On a side note, the only time I've ever seen someone on a message board suggesting a thread be made primarily to insult them was when it was an attention-hungry kid who people were beginning to ignore. Sad...

Bozos

Thus proving my point. LOL.

By the way, you should practice what you preach. One of the dictionary definitions of "Bozo" follows:

bozo
"muscular low-I.Q. male," c.1910, perhaps from Sp. bozal, used in slave trade and to mean "one who speaks Spanish poorly."

One could argue that it could be an insult to the mentally challenged...

You mentioned "Fool" also. One definition follows:

fool /ful/
–noun
5. a weak-minded or idiotic person.

Also could be used to describe the mentally retarded.

What a horrible person you are, to say such things and disrespect the disabled....

 

[Sammy Yousef]

That really got to you, didn't it

There are bozos everywhere. What got to me was that it was tolerated here. That's a slight on everyone who didn't speak up against it, the admins for not removing it and warning you about it, and sadly it's very telling about the general attitude of the group. (I'm glad SOME of you did speak up, even if that was followed by an attack or criticism of me, at least you're not completely prejudiced hateful small minded people).

Don't even try to pretend you were just insulting me. You posted a picture used in publicity by the Special Olympics organizers for freak sake.

As for being an attention seeker, what exactly have you actually contributed to this thread except abuse?

As for suggesting that the use of the word fool is derogatory towards the mentally disabled, talk about a weak argument. In other words you're reaching mate! Just about everyone here would have used the word fool to describe someone. Many would even have used retard. Fewer would have linked to a picture of a downs syndrome affected athlete in the special Olympics in such a derogatory way just to make a point or be funny. That's just disgusting.

Go look up troll in the dictionary while you're at it.

Oh and I meant bozo as in the clown. Perhaps you're going to suggest I have some kind of prejudice against clowns now?

 

[MadMonkey]

There are bozos everywhere. What got to me was that it was tolerated here. That's a slight on everyone who didn't speak up against it, the admins for not removing it and warning you about it, and sadly it's very telling about the general attitude of the group. (I'm glad SOME of you did speak up, even if that was followed by an attack or criticism of me, at least you're not completely prejudiced hateful small minded people).

Aww, I'm sorry you're such a victim here.

Like I said, you can always ignore comments you don't like... you're not required to fire back.

I'm guessing, however, that it would be very, very difficult for you to keep your mouth shut.

As for me, well, apparently I'm a troll, so I'm allowed to insult you

If you look over any other part of the G3.5 sections, you'll see the amount of assistance I've given.

Don't even try to pretend you were just insulting me. You posted a picture used in publicity by the Special Olympics organizers for freak sake.

I sure did.

As for being an attention seeker, what exactly have you actually contributed to this thread except abuse?

Like I said, I'm sorry you're so downtrodden, abused, and victimized. I mean, it's impossible to turn off your monitor and make it all stop... isn't it?

As for suggesting that the use of the word fool is derogatory towards the mentally disabled, talk about a weak argument.

Hey, I'm just quoting the dictionary... it's not my fault that you didn't know you were insulting them

In other words you're reaching mate! Just about everyone here would have used the word fool to describe someone. Many would even have used retard.

I've never called anyone a fool. I've called people retards, though.

Fewer would have linked to a picture of a downs syndrome affected athlete in the special Olympics in such a derogatory way just to make a point or be funny. That's just disgusting.

In your opinion. Why do you feel the need to suppress my opinion? (now where have I heard that before...)

Go look up troll in the dictionary while you're at it.

I did. I'm assuming you mean the definition shown below, since it's the only one that would make any sense:

troll
An electronic mail message, Usenet posting or other (electronic) communication which is intentionally incorrect, but not overtly controversial, or the act of sending such a message. Trolling aims to elicit an emotional reaction from those with a hair-trigger on the reply key. A really subtle troll makes some people lose their minds.

Apparently, it's working

Oh and I meant bozo as in the clown. Perhaps you're going to suggest I have some kind of prejudice against clowns now?

I'm sure you did.

And I meant "retard" as in retarding the timing on the engine in my car.


I'm now going to leave this conversation to avoid cluttering the board with more of your nitpicking, overly sensitive, crybaby replies. If you have something to say to me, feel free to PM me.

If not, you may stay quiet.


Although, I'm betting that you can't help but reply in public, just to show that you can. I'm assuming it's also going to be another personal attack on me, since that seems to be what you're resorting to

But either way, I'll be in the G3.5 sections until I get G4.

Have fun,