Upgrade costs?

[Flapper]

Just adding to the noise:

Clarifications:
KE sells to Great Planes, which sells to Tower, your LHS, etc. Whatever the deal with GP is, it is only the first step in the pricing. The old rule of thumb is that something doubles each time it changes hands. The pricing complaints are with the end seller and Great Planes - and only indirectly with KE. Tower/GP have a wide latitude in what the final pice is, and how many different discount deals they can offer. KE has far less. Rant if you must, but direct at the correct party (ies).
Not good to bash the farmer (on his own web site no less!) for the price of bread at the grocery store.

"Making a new user feel like they've been ripped off is not smart whether or not you can justify it. You'll lose as much business as you gain by this tactic."

Must not be true. Same was said for G2 to G3. The market loss for that must have been very acceptable when balanced against the gain in sales. If there was to be a hefty discount coming for recent purchases, it would be good marketing to make that known at the time of product launch. Hasn't been announced yet.....

All things get old - my 1999 Toyota, my PhotoshopCS, my dog. I enjoy them until they stop working, they are unsupported, or the features on newer models are more attractive. Then I sigh about the oil filters that no longer fit, the camera that is not compatable, or the immense effort in training the new one...and move on.

 

[unreal]

I will not buy any of those game systems for that very reason. Plus the PCs have better graphics anyway.

But not the games to go with it.

In my small amount of posts so far I've probably mentioned a few times the fact that I bought G3.5 20 or so days ago here in the UK, only to find out G4 is about to be released a week and a half later, notably with a much better controller (the first thing I was worried about before buying G3.5 was the mass of people whose plastic bit in the G3 controller snapped off). Fair enough, £116 ($233) isn't a large amount and at least it wasn't the £149.99 ($308) from Ripmax. I can easily afford to pre-order G4 from Tower Hobbies if they can import to the UK without much hassle (they appear to deliver to most countries world-wide but their website is terrible), and I just can't agree with the people who say "oh, you don't HAVE to buy it", "you don't NEED it". Sure, we don't "need" it at the second, but it won't be long before we do.

It's going to become a fact that the majority of people will rush out and buy G4 for the slightly better graphics, water physics, or in my case both of those and also what I would assume to be a better quality controller (as far as the internals go). These people will probably dump G3.5 to one side because apart from the older addons that may be updated to work with G4 at some point, there's not much point using it. This will affect the modeling side of the community and also the multiplayer population. The multiplayer feature is one great attractions to any sim since it can get a tad boring practicing for hours on end by yourself. However slight the differences are that matter most, G3.5 is still < G4. This is why we will all need and want it. The handful of fanboys who say "no you don't" just because they feel the need to will probably be rushing out to the shops to buy it themselves, if they haven't already pre-ordered it.

I'm still happy that I bought G3.5 but like the other person giving the example about him buying a flight data recorder, then the next day/week a better version of the same product was released, it's still quite frustrating that you didn't have prior warning of the immediate release. But at least he was able to send his back and get the better version, something I won't be able to do. I've already mentioned as many times that G3.5 has earned the cash I spent a hundred times over in potential crashes, and has already taught me a great deal. For that reason it will still always be a great product. But at the end of the day, you would rather have shoes than bits of rags wrapped around your feet.

PS. When people in the US are whining about price, particularly if they bought G3.5 more than a year ago, they should take a minute to look at the prices being charged here in the UK for RC related products. Everything is typically 40-50% more expensive than the US, with only a handful of exceptions. If G3.5 has dropped to $100 in the US, that means that Ripmax are now charging 3 times that. They should see how lucky they are. For this reason I'm probably going to look into batch ordering things from the US. On the chunky shopping list I made, the savings I would make if I bought my first Tx/two kits/other gear from the US would be about $1200.

Edit: Speaking of which, someone was mentioning the addon/expansion packs. In the US they cost $29.99, in the UK most of them are £29.99 ($62) each, with a couple being £24.99 ($51) without P&P. If you bought all the addons/expansion packs that Ripmax have on sale on their site (EP 2, 3; Addons 1, 2, 3, 4, 5), it would cost you £224.92 ($461.4).

 

[Sammy Yousef]

Must not be true. Same was said for G2 to G3. The market loss for that must have been very acceptable when balanced against the gain in sales. If there was to be a hefty discount coming for recent purchases, it would be good marketing to make that known at the time of product launch. Hasn't been announced yet.....

How do you know where this sim would be if users had less legitimate grievances? How many more planes would we have a GMax version of an aircraft creation plugin? How many users have had problems with their controllers breaking only to be told it must be their fault? How many of those people have decided not to recommend the sim to others at their clubs? At the club I'm flying at I'd say 10 percent of r/c pilots use a sim. I've had some of them try it and tell me it's rubbish because the physics was off at that particular point in time (only to be fixed by yet another update a couple of months later that required re-tweaking all the planes). Even if the product is the best game in town, it still has to compete with the real thing. Things should be at the point now where r/c instructors tell their students a sim is a must have, yet I still see many if not most users learning using buddy leads and no sim.

All things get old - my 1999 Toyota, my PhotoshopCS, my dog. I enjoy them until they stop working, they are unsupported, or the features on newer models are more attractive. Then I sigh about the oil filters that no longer fit, the camera that is not compatable, or the immense effort in training the new one...and move on.

See this right here is exactly what I'm talking about. Dismissive attitudes. An insistance that if someone else thinks differently they must be wrong. But I'll counter...

A well maintained car will last 20 years, though you may want to change around 10 years or 100,000km. That's a reasonable time frame. Plenty of time to get use to the quirks of your car and learn all about it.

Dogs last about 14 years and apart from boutique breeds breeds don't change much in a lifetime. Plenty of time to become an expert at dealing with your dog.

Software and cameras are obsolete 6-12 months after they're released IF you're lucky. In many cases good luck obtaining even last year's model. Funnily enough the replacement isn't always better and thats about the time it takes users to build up experience with a product and decide whether or not its been a sound investment, discuss it with others etc. etc. Still, even these things without artificial restrictions like dongles and/or servers you must connect to in order to install the latest will last many years. My oldest digital camera is about 6 years old. I look after it, I know it well and I know when to use it (vs my other cameras). It's in perfect working order. I have 2nd hand manual cameras I used for astrophotography that are 20 years old. Not as well looked after but if I want to use them (and there are reasons to want to use them) my biggest issue is finding film (which sadly is becoming harder).

If you've given up and decided that a throw away society where things become obsolete 6 months is a good thing, that's your perogative. Funny how people will rabbit on about the environment and yet want to throw things away after 6 months whose life has artifically been limited. Forget the environment for a second though and be selfish. If you spend all your time upgrading gadgets and gizmos you have less time actually using them, and learning to use them well. Isn't it funny how well made old things become collectables and people spend just as much time and effort restoring them as others spend upgrading 20 times? I came across a friend of my wife's that has a 20 year old Merc he bought new. He's an older gentleman. He's trying to decide whether for the last few years of his driving he wants to keep maintaining what he has, and what he's use to and knows really well or if he wants to upgrade. Isn't it nice that he's got the choice. (Incidentally that's always been my gripe with the dongle in Realflight - I know I won't be able to fire up a Windows XP emulator in 2020 and run G3 because I won't be able to find a working G3 controller. Who knows if there will be a new sim then or if financial realities or regulation will kill r/c sims or r/c altogether. I don't own a crystal ball. I'd just as happily have parted with my money if there were no dongle and I believe ther are other honest people out there too). I think the acceptance of planned obsolesence is perhaps the biggest time waster and hinderance to progress we've ever come up with. The idea that product cycles need to get faster and faster for tech to improve is just bunk created by commercial entities that want a larger revenue stream.

How many flyers at your local field still use the same radio they bought 7 or more years ago? How many guys collect and fly old models or lament the inavailabilty of that fun flyer that got it just right?

By the way you're talking to a guy who's just bought a 3rd digital SLR of the same model (described as "ancient history") because the "new improved" version is actually 2 steps forward 3 steps back and is lacking features I value. The oldest of my SLRs is 3 years old. My wife and I literally shot 20,000 photos in 3 weeks of our honeymoon. Yet I'm STILL learning new things not only about photography but about this particular model SLR.

But as I said this is all typical of exactly what I'm talking about in this community. The "I'm alright, you must be doing it wrong, or differently, but either way it's your fault" mentality whenever someone comes up with a legitimate grievance. It's no more mature than those kids that come on and whine about inane garbage or don't want to spend money or want 70 upgrades for free because they version 1 many years ago. (I have no problem spending money so long as I get something signiticant back in return)

 

[r1derbike]

Hey Sammy! I still use my Super 7 Futaba radios, and a Hi-Tech 7 I bought 11 or so years ago, but with a new twist!

XPS modules! Yes! The new, the now, 2.4 Ghz!

Onward, upward. Making the old new again!

Charles

 

[opjose]

Many are still realing from Vista upgrades earlier this year so this isn't the time for a sim to be released that requires new hardware.

Quite the opposite...

Vista has forced a LOT of people to upgrade due to to it's graphic and processor requirements.

It's a good time to release G4 with better DX9 support.


Vista people with DX10 support will fare much better if their hardware is really DX10 compliant.

However those who have been "taken" by the vendors, will continue to have problems with their non-compliant hardware.

---

While I don't disagree with everything you've posted ( Hey I'm using perfectly good JR 8103 TX's!!! what are they now 5-6 years old... ) ...

If the same arguements against the new upgrade were applied against say the Spread Spectrum radios, then there would not be the same degree of hype in the market...

G3 WILL at some point go the way of the Do-Do... as did Flight Simulator 1-9, eh, what are we up to now, version TEN!

Why is it a "disservice" for a new product to be released?

Frankly I'm hoping that KE will continue to develope G4 and add some of those very things you mention, such as prop strikes, etc.


I'll as you the same question I've asked others...

Would you be happier of KE had NOT come out with G4?

If so why?

 

[brendonv]

I bought G3.5 3 days ago, man that sucks. They better not stop updates and the servers or ill kill em.

 

[Sammy Yousef]

Quite the opposite...

Vista has forced a LOT of people to upgrade due to to it's graphic and processor requirements.

It's a good time to release G4 with better DX9 support.


Vista people with DX10 support will fare much better if their hardware is really DX10 compliant.

Was it here that this was already discussed?

http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/08/11/0524250&from=rss

DX10 cards are already obsolete.

The disservice isn't the release of a new product. Progress is a good thing. The disservice is the ever shorter release cycles that don't allow users to get familiar enough with a product to get real use out of it before it's no longer support.

However those who have been "taken" by the vendors, will continue to have problems with their non-compliant hardware.

How are you suppose to even make an informed choice if a piece of hardware is only out for a few months before it's superceded?

If the same arguements against the new upgrade were applied against say the Spread Spectrum radios, then there would not be the same degree of hype in the market...

Not true. Though it's before my time i understand that AM transmitters were around for quite a while before they were superceded with FM, then improved PCM etc. If 2 years ago I was telling you that AM was the way to go, then 12 months ago told you your radio was no longer supported and you had to use FM, then today I told you FM isn't supported buy spectrum I doubt you'd be happy with it.

What's worse is for individual models rather than entire technologies we're talking about a cycle that's often less than a year.

G3 WILL at some point go the way of the Do-Do... as did Flight Simulator 1-9, eh, what are we up to now, version TEN!

Yes but by many accounts version 10's been a dog even on new hardware, had more significant bugs, addons are twice as costly etc. Go to a popular flight sim site and check out the number of free addon aircraft for FSX vs FS2004. it most certainly didn't take the same amount of time for developers to go from 2002 to 2004. By all accounts FS2000 was a dog and many people skipped that version. I don't know what the future will bring but I've seen a very definite fracture of the user community with many sticking to FS2004. That's brought on because in many ways the new sim is inferior to the old - addons are twice as expensive, there are more bugs, the licensing and activation isn't friendly to hobbiests. The new model isn't always better than the old.

Why is it a "disservice" for a new product to be released?

I never said it was. It just should be a gentle transition with support for customers that just bought the previous version. Every upgrade shouldn't be a pain, both financially and to addon content developers who do this in their spare time for free.

Frankly I'm hoping that KE will continue to develope G4 and add some of those very things you mention, such as prop strikes, etc.

Oh so am I. The more realism the better. However G3 will only be profitable for as long as it's a pleasure to a large number of people, many of whom have limited time and/or money. It just hurts when you spend time making a plane only to have it not work in the next version, or buy a product only to be told weeks later that it's out of date.

I'll as you the same question I've asked others...

Would you be happier of KE had NOT come out with G4?
If so why?

No I'd be happier if they addressed the issues above instead of ignoring them. I'd be happier if they didn't keep making life hard for me when I've no intention of stealing their software - I'd be happier if every version didn't come with a new radio that didn't work with the last. I'd be happier if people's hard work developing planes and fields didn't end up wasted because further work is required to keep those creations flying in the latest sim that everyone's moving to. I'd be happier if I could depend on what's being promised to actually happen. I'd be happier if I wasn't being gouged on each purchase for either an ineffective supply chain or international shipping

Will I buy G4? This time not right away. Since I feel I've been ignored I'll let others do the beta testing this time and see what people have to say. I'm sick and tired of spending more time trying to keep up with the latest update and working out what is broken in this release than I spend actually flying. My time is limited. I've decided not to buy addon 4 until I make a decision on G4 - at least this way I'll save on combined shipping.

It's also why I haven't bothered fiddling with creating new aircraft, colour schemes, or fields lately. I might spend all my spare time for a week doing something and who knows if in 6 months anyone's able to use it. (The exception to date has been colour schemes - I can create colour schemes that work in both G2 and G3 for most planes...but since some of those are for addon aircraft I guess that work's going to be unusable ancient history for G4). It's like spending all your spare time for a week building a model only to have someone tell you that in 6 months they're going to come round and step on the model. I've had enough and have better or more important things to do.

If you think I'm just having a dummy spit you have to understand that

- Whenever I've edited fields I've had to contend with repeatedly reinserting disks because the software decides to validate, not to mention a buggy airport editor that crashes and creates phantom objects (I never have worked out if it's because I have old install media for my G2 addons or if something else weird is happening but trying to edit a photofield on a train is hard enough without having to wait till you get home to insert a disk, or hook up a bulky controller on a crowded train).

- When I've waited patiently for a free aircraft editor it turns out after the wait that I can either thieve 3dsmax, spends thousands on it, or spend hundreds on workarounds with software not intended for the task that produces flakey results at best

Flying certain more stable versions of G3 has been a joy. Developing for it has been an exercise in frustration and disappointment. If I really didn't care what happened to Realflight, and if I really didn't want an improved version released I'd never bother to point any of these things out - I have better things to do than whine to strangers. The reason I've said any of this is that I hope someone's out there actually listening. Maybe one day a couple of my concerns might be addressed, and heck maybe if that happens the sim will last longer for it instead of going the way other simulators have.

 

[opjose]

With all due respect, I'll pick your post apart as it's in the same vein used by others...

Was it here that this was already discussed?

http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/08/11/0524250&from=rss

DX10 cards are already obsolete.

Just goes to show that KE is not the only one coming out with new products.

Microsoft's announcement says that DX10.1 basically IMPOSES full DX10 compliance which a lot of the vendors do not do in an effort to get product to market.

Some people will discover that their vendor didn't give them what they thought they were getting...

However Vista has forced a major hardware cycle ( again ) which the vendors desire.

The disservice isn't the release of a new product. Progress is a good thing. The disservice is the ever shorter release cycles that don't allow users to get familiar enough with a product to get real use out of it before it's no longer support.

So you are effectively saying that KE should have waited LONGER before releasing G4 to please the end user?

How are you suppose to even make an informed choice if a piece of hardware is only out for a few months before it's superseded?

That's the rub isn't it... one reason there are so many reviews and magazines that attack any new hardware.

The problem is that there is usually some bias, or the reporting is not hyper-critical.

Not true. Though it's before my time I understand that AM transmitters were around for quite a while before they were superseded with FM, then improved PCM etc. If 2 years ago I was telling you that AM was the way to go, then 12 months ago told you your radio was no longer supported and you had to use FM, then today I told you FM isn't supported buy spectrum I doubt you'd be happy with it.

And that's exactly what is happening with Spread Spectrum!

Dunno how many times I've been told to switch over to it by others, club members, magazines, etc...

Owners of SS tech are it's biggest proponents, which is human nature...

That's brought on because in many ways the new sim is inferior to the old - add-ons are twice as expensive, there are more bugs, the licensing and activation isn't friendly to hobbyists. The new model isn't always better than the old.

True to an extent about MSX, but since we don't have G4 in our hands yet you can't apply that logic to it YET, though many here do just that.

I never said it was. It just should be a gentle transition with support for customers that just bought the previous version.

Again you are making assumptions about which you don't seem to know.

KE already stated that the physics in G4 were UNTOUCHED ( frankly I wish they WERE upgraded ).

That means that no changes to ANY of the existing planes will be needed.

Every upgrade shouldn't be a pain, both financially and to add-on content developers who do this in their spare time for free.

So G4 should be free?

That would indeed be great, but I doubt that KE would be able to pay their staff, let alone subsidize the cost of the new controllers.

However G3 will only be profitable for as long as it's a pleasure to a large number of people, many of whom have limited time and/or money.

That mountain has already been conquered with G3.

With other sims releasing things that compete with G3, a new version may be in order to keep that profitability...

It just hurts when you spend time making a plane only to have it not work in the next version, or buy a product only to be told weeks later that it's out of date.

Again an unfounded assumption.

No I'd be happier if they addressed the issues above instead of ignoring them.

But they DID address them by keeping the physics THE SAME.

Frankly I was hoping for a big improvement, especially in ground handling... now thanks to attempts to appease people who think like you we'll have to wait for some inevitable patch for G4 to get it... ugh.

IMHO Give it to me NOW and forget about leaving things unchanged with the physics... if this means we have to modify existing planes to make them current, well then so be it!

I'd be happier if they didn't keep making life hard for me when I've no intention of stealing their software

Doesn't sound like anyone has made anything "harder" for you...

You could just keep using G3.5 too you know...

I'd be happier if every version didn't come with a new radio that didn't work with the last.

So G4 should not come with a new radio?

G3 should not have come with one too?

Hmmm... Gotta think about that one...

Frankly I think that we should have a better upgraded radio that includes more virtual controls... I was hoping we would see it in G4...

I wanted a couple of more knobs and switches...

I'd be happier if people's hard work developing planes and fields didn't end up wasted because further work is required to keep those creations flying in the latest sim that everyone's moving to.

Sorry but this is another baseless assumption already addressed by KE as being false.

I'd be happier if I could depend on what's being promised to actually happen.

They are "promising" a new version.

I can "depend" upon that!

I'd be happier if I wasn't being gouged on each purchase for either an ineffective supply chain or international shipping

Can't help you there... International shipping is not my bailiwick.

Since I feel I've been ignored

Doesn't sound to me like anyone ignored you...

I'll let others do the beta testing this time and see what people have to say.

That's what reviews are for.

That's what comments from us unwashed "Lemmings" are for...

If it turns out to be somehow "inferior" I'll be posting about being "ripped off"...

I doubt that will be the case though... I'll at least give them the benefit of the doubt.

I'm sick and tired of spending more time trying to keep up with the latest update and working out what is broken in this release than I spend actually flying.

Eh, you DO NOT - HAVE - to update... You can always keep what works for you.

Even with prior releases this is true...

My time is limited.

As with most people, and irrelevant to this conversation... you did compose a long post too... it took your time.

I've decided not to buy add-on 4 until I make a decision on G4 - at least this way I'll save on combined shipping.

Anything that helps...

It's also why I haven't bothered fiddling with creating new aircraft, color schemes, or fields lately. I might spend all my spare time for a week doing something and who knows if in 6 months anyone's able to use it. (The exception to date has been color schemes - I can create color schemes that work in both G2 and G3 for most planes...but since some of those are for add-on aircraft I guess that work's going to be unusable ancient history for G4).

Again unfounded "doom and gloom" assumptions...

The only current variable are the add-ons and KE already says that they are "working on it"...

In the past they have been pretty good with these promises.

It's like spending all your spare time for a week building a model only to have someone tell you that in 6 months they're going to come round and step on the model. I've had enough and have better or more important things to do.

So you wouldn't then fly RC aircraft either as they are likely to crash sooner or later?

If you think I'm just having a dummy spit you have to understand that

No, unlike others at least you argue with some logic no matter how misplaced.
I contend that these arguements are based upon a PERCEPTION...

- Whenever I've edited fields I've had to contend with repeatedly reinserting disks because the software decides to validate,

Mine never does... even on three different machines, since one of the G3 updates this has been the case.

A complete re-install may cure this...

not to mention a buggy airport editor that crashes and creates phantom objects

Yup, seen this... gone with the latest release of G3.5.

AFTER I did a "complete refresh" of the installation...

I guess someone "listened" because KE noted it in one of the update notes.

- When I've waited patiently for a free aircraft editor it turns out after the wait that I can either thieve 3dsmax, spends thousands on it, or spend hundreds on workarounds with software not intended for the task that produces flakey results at best

KE stated that they were going to use GMAX for the editor as many other games did too.

Autodesk screwed us on this, not KE.

The reason I've said any of this is that I hope someone's out there actually listening.

Maybe one day a couple of my concerns might be addressed, and heck maybe if that happens the sim will last longer for it instead of going the way other simulators have.

It seems that at least some of the things you are concerned about have long been covered, and that you may have missed that this is the case.

What makes KE stick around, is being able to pay their employees salaries while making a profit.

What makes a sim popular is have the latest and greatest visual effect, but at the same time an accurate physical representation of the real "world" in which we fly.

As with game programs, anyone shopping for software is going to be swayed FIRST by the visuals, and NEXT by the physics.

You don't want to purchase an RC sim today that looks like MS Flight Simulator 3.0 do you?

You'd buy something else first...

 

[Johndou]

...


I'll as <ask> you the same question I've asked others...

Would you be happier of KE had NOT come out with G4?

If so why?

Well, op, I don’t think you’ve ever asked me that question. But that’s alright I’ll answer it anyway.

The fact that KnifeEdge “came out” with G4 has had no effect on my emotional state of being. I’m neither happy nor sad about this latest upgrade from KnifeEdge – I certainly hope that you don’t have an emotional reaction to this situation either - I would think that anyone who does have an emotional attachment to new software updates requires some serious help.

I do wish that they hadn’t introduced this particular change. My reasons are purely selfish and not particularly supportive of KnifeEdge.

Had they actually come out with a brand new program, one with a totally new “engine”, totally new physics and the upgrades that would create a true water environment and realistic ground handling, etc. ... I’d feel better about the introduction. By adding a few new features like water images that react to movement, a few new planes, flying sites, tweaking with the ground “effects” along with the soaring aspect, although an admirable upgrade, I think they’ve done a disservice to their current customers. Again I’m second guessing here and neither you nor I know all of the facts. But I suspect, unfairly as you may think, that those little changes could have been added to the existing G3.5.

I suspect that had KnifeEdge chosen to go that route instead of the G4 route that the changes that were made that effected the add-ons would be a non-issue - if the changes effecting them had of been held back in favor of a new “engine” and totally new physics. Then the introduction of G4 would be justified and warranted. But, that’s second guessing, it’s not fair to the staff of KnifeEdge and I reluctantly bring it up here only to show you why I “feel” the way I do. To a large degree, I hope I’m wrong. I hope that my assumptions and speculations are proven to be nothing more then just that, assumptions and speculations … You’ll be one of the first to find that out and I’m looking forward to reading your analysis.

KnifeEdge has done an outstanding job with G3.5. They are, or should be, the sim that all others strive to match. I would hate to see them lose that position because they tried to rush a new upgrade to the market. Deadlines, schedule commitments, etc. are a vital part of any business environment. Meeting a release date to suport the Christmas buying season is always a driving force. Unfortunately schedules usually do a lot to stifle creativity. I suspect that a new sim is right around the corner. One that will incorporate some of the new advancements being shown in the Game industries. It’s a very difficult position to manage both schedule and creativity in the same environment, at the same time that competitors are nipping at your heals.

 

[opjose]

Well, op, I don’t think you’ve ever asked me that question. But that’s alright I’ll answer it anyway.

I do wish that they hadn’t introduced this particular change. My reasons are purely selfish and not particularly supportive of KnifeEdge.

Wonderful!

At the least your honest.

There seem to be many here who are quipping because now they have to get mumsy and daddy to come up with more cash for them.

They call KE such "bad people" because this is going to somehow cost...

Had they actually come out with a brand new program, one with a totally new “engine”, totally new physics and the upgrades that would create a true water environment and realistic ground handling, etc. ... I’d feel better about the introduction.

Yup I wouldn't blink plunking down the cash in that case...

However now you have Sammy above complaining about the very thing you ( and actually I too ) would want and prefer.

By adding a few new features like water images that react to movement, a few new planes, flying sites, tweaking with the ground “effects” along with the soaring aspect, although an admirable upgrade, I think they’ve done a disservice to their current customers.

But WHY is this a disservice?

They've added features, but if they go too far they have many screaming about "lack of support" for older planes, scenery, etc.

They've selected a middle ground, because so many people seem to demand it.

I would have loved to see a complete overhaul, old planes and sceneries be damned.

Instead in deference and as a "service" to their installed user base, they kept compatibility up.... UGH...

Microshaft did the same with Flight Sim, and IMHO this has held it back through the years... there was far too much emphasis on backward compatibility...

Again I’m second guessing here and neither you nor I know all of the facts. But I suspect, unfairly as you may think, that those little changes could have been added to the existing G3.5.

Maybe... maybe not, or maybe KE decided that the new features needed to be bundled into a new version number to both compete with existing sims, and to keep the sheckles coming in.

Either way, they could have simply forgone all of this and done exactly as you've said leaving everyone to complain about lack of G3/3.5 compatibility...

I wish they had, along with adding those other buttons and knobs on the controller...

I suspect that had KnifeEdge chosen to go that route instead of the G4 route that the changes that were made that effected the add-ons would be a non-issue - if the changes effecting them had of been held back in favor of a new “engine” and totally new physics. Then the introduction of G4 would be justified and warranted.
But, that’s second guessing

Yup it's shooting in the dark.

SOMETHING they ran accross threw off the code so much that they could no longer offer backward compatibility...

Usually things like this represent some fundamental change that may aid future revisions... but I'm also second guessing...

You’ll be one of the first to find that out and I’m looking forward to reading your analysis.

Yup, and in spite of people thinking that I'm a "half full" guy, I was the one of the first to bitch loudly about changes to the physics on some of the prior releases.

This will be no different. I'm expecting something for whatever I pay.

I'll also give them the benefit of a doubt though... I will not prejudge.

KnifeEdge has done an outstanding job with G3.5. They are, or should be, the sim that all others strive to match. I would hate to see them lose that position because they tried to rush a new upgrade to the market. Deadlines, schedule commitments, etc. are a vital part of any business environment. Meeting a release date to suport the Christmas buying season is always a driving force. Unfortunately schedules usually do a lot to stifle creativity. I suspect that a new sim is right around the corner. One that will incorporate some of the new advancements being shown in the Game industries. It’s a very difficult position to manage both schedule and creativity in the same environment, at the same time that competitors are nipping at your heals.

Very true.

 

[jeffpn]

Had they actually come out with a brand new program, one with a totally new “engine”, totally new physics and the upgrades that would create a true water environment and realistic ground handling, etc. ... I’d feel better about the introduction.

They tried that. It kept shorting out the CPU

 

[Sammy Yousef]

Just goes to show that KE is not the only one coming out with new products.

I never said that was the case at all. In fact I've presented lots of examples of other companies coming out with new products. I repeat again that this isn't the problem i have with KE at all. I'm hoping that things improve and that requires that eventually a new product comes out.

Microsoft's announcement says that DX10.1 basically IMPOSES full DX10 compliance which a lot of the vendors do not do in an effort to get product to market.

MS' annoucement effectively means that early adopters have spent a lot of money on a card that will be of little use, since the selection of DX10 games is limited and future development will focus on DX10.1. To add insult to injury and confusion, why the minor point release on a specification that from a compliance point of view should always have been a major release (DX11)

Some people will discover that their vendor didn't give them what they thought they were getting...

Rubbish. They got exactly what they paid for - a DX10 compliant card. MS just changed the rules. Unless vendors were aware of this spec change well in advance (which they may have been) it's not their fault.

However Vista has forced a major hardware cycle ( again ) which the vendors desire.

That's the problem. Vendors are losing touch with reality and as product cycles shorten this tactic will backfire. What's the point of spending big on a piece of kit when your bragging rights will be limited to a few weeks (IF availability keeps up with demand that is). What's the point when the new product is more restrictive than the old? People buy new products mainly because they believe they'll get better functionality, not so they can lose existing functionality.

So you are effectively saying that KE should have waited LONGER before releasing G4 to please the end user?

From the point of view of a user that bought G3.5 I think that's exactly what they're thinking. There are as I said other ways to fix this like significant discounts for anyone who bought in the last few months.

That's the rub isn't it... one reason there are so many reviews and magazines that attack any new hardware.

The problem is that there is usually some bias, or the reporting is not hyper-critical.

Lots of reasons for this. Many vendors seek to bias reviewers with bribes or favours. Others will seek to intimidate those who post negative reviews or threaten legal action. Though this is nothing new, I've definitely noticed a decline in the quality of reviews on the net of late.

And that's exactly what is happening with Spread Spectrum!

Dunno how many times I've been told to switch over to it by others, club members, magazines, etc...

Actually since there's only one spread spectrum radio that was legal at my club as of when I bought my radio earlier this year, I haven't felt that pressure. However I did note that our club newsletter suggested this month that spectrum be made compulsory so that the distance between flying fields could be reduced and the number of fields increased so that pressure is definitely on the way..

Again you are making assumptions about which you don't seem to know.

KE already stated that the physics in G4 were UNTOUCHED ( frankly I wish they WERE upgraded ).

In the same statement they say physics is untouched and yet ground handling is much better, gear is springy, and there's new water. Now I guess it depends on your definition of physics but that sounds like physics and physical interaction to me.

That means that no changes to ANY of the existing planes will be needed.

If that were true there wouldn't be and issue with G2 addon packs working.

So G4 should be free?

That would indeed be great, but I doubt that KE would be able to pay their staff, let alone subsidize the cost of the new controllers.

Oh do be fair. Please point me to where in my post I say KE should not sell G4. I only say that new G3.5 users should be offered a heavily subsidized G4 and even then I qualified it with KE covering the cost of their controller

That mountain has already been conquered with G3.

So now you're saying that G3 is SO accurate that KE can become complacent and doesn't need to make any improvements??? Until the Realflight model is indistinguishable form the real thing to an experienced pilot, that simply isn't the case.

With other sims releasing things that compete with G3, a new version may be in order to keep that profitability...

Yeah there's a selling point for a sim. Uh sorry guys no new features but we need to keep profitability up, so cough up.

If KE wants to remain profitable they have to continue to add value. No company has a right to continue to be profitable - it's something that must continually be earnt.

Again an unfounded assumption.

I honestly don't know what you're referring to there. I'm basing my assumptions on KE's own description of G4 and on their past behaviour.

But they DID address them by keeping the physics THE SAME.

You seem to limit your description of physics to what happens in the air. As you've said the sim's quite good here and though it always can be improved I think the focus on ground handling and adding water is quite a reasonable step forward.

Frankly I was hoping for a big improvement, especially in ground handling... now thanks to attempts to appease people who think like you we'll have to wait for some inevitable patch for G4 to get it... ugh.

Huh? Everything I'm seeing by the admins in this forum says there will be springy landing gear will be in G4 at initial release (but not floats for custom planes). Have a look at the thread "Questions for admins". If this information is incorrect or out of date please let me know. I've had to catch up on 2 months worth of posts in 2 days so you'll appreciate that I've had to skim. (Hey that's nothing compared to the 2238 email messages that were waiting for me at work).

IMHO Give it to me NOW and forget about leaving things unchanged with the physics... if this means we have to modify existing planes to make them current, well then so be it!

That's disrespectful to the hard work that a lot of people have put into getting their planes just right.

Doesn't sound like anyone has made anything "harder" for you...

You could just keep using G3.5 too you know...

Yes until the G3.5 controller breaks and replacements aren't supported, or the multiplayer servers become G4 only. "You can always stay on the old version" is a very bad argument since as soon as the support dries up, there are reasons you can't. For example can you buy new hardware that'll run Win95? If you could, how about the fact that connecting to the net would likely leave you spyware and virus ridden because new vulnerabilities aren't patched.....not to mention that the OS is no longer sold. Or more on topic...Hey if I prefer G2 I can stick with that right? Oh wait. The multiplayer servers are gone. I can't buy it anymore and chances are once my controller breaks that's the end of the party (even though my G3 controller would work just as well if not for the dongle nonsense). The fact is vendors apply pressure to upgrade. The idea that you can stay with the old version if you prefer is little more than a fairytale in the medium to long term. (Sure you can stick with it for a little while longer)

So G4 should not come with a new radio?

G3 should not have come with one too?

Hmmm... Gotta think about that one...

Frankly I think that we should have a better upgraded radio that includes more virtual controls... I was hoping we would see it in G4...

Hey here's a thought. Why not sell a package with a controller and a package without one and let the user decide if they want to use their old radio. There was nothing wrong with the G2 radio. The little red reset button added in G3.5 was nice but certainly wasn't worth $100 to me, and as I said the practice of making the controller the dongle means that I have to carry both if I want to retain the choice to fly G2 or G3.5. Since this isn't practical I'm forced to choose of a morning which one I want. If they were selling a new software radio separately and if the customer could choose to upgrade or not, I'd have a lot less to gripe about wouldn't I?

I wanted a couple of more knobs and switches...

That'd be nice. Digital trims are one thing that they're adding that is nice. That's the biggest difference between the feel of my real radio and the G3 one. I still want the option to stick with what I have if I so choose.

Sorry but this is another baseless assumption already addressed by KE as being false.

What is?

They are "promising" a new version.

I can "depend" upon that!

Yes because it's already a done deal and has shipped you can rely on a new radio being released. As for future work, I have to fall back on my experience with the company to say it may or may not happen. Once upon a time a GMax plugin was also promised and I couldn't depend on that.

Can't help you there... International shipping is not my bailiwick.

Glad you have that luxury.

Doesn't sound to me like anyone ignored you...

Almost everything I've brought up here I've been posting about since I bought G3 with little or no response from admins. (Don't even get me started on licensing issues and installing on multiple computers, which many seem to do but which quite clearly violates the EULA).

If it turns out to be somehow "inferior" I'll be posting about being "ripped off"...

I've never seen you do that, even when the physics took a huge step backwards. Sure you had a minor disagreement with some of the admins (and if I recall correctly I wasn't impressed with how that was handled by KE) but overall I get the feeling KE could do almost anything and you'd be happy to justify the behaviour.

Eh, you DO NOT - HAVE - to update... You can always keep what works for you.

Even with prior releases this is true...

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong!!! See above.

As with most people, and irrelevant to this conversation... you did compose a long post too... it took your time.

I really really HATE that. You take the time to state your case well and someone says "if you have so little time, how come you can write this post". That's just childish. It takes me a LOT longer to create a decent aircraft variant or 3D field. It takes a couple of order of magnitude more time to create a photofield or aircraft variant...and in any case who knows if it'll work for G4?

Again unfounded "doom and gloom" assumptions...

Well the fact that you choose to rubbish any and all arguments the way you are makes me suspect your bias.

What's unfounded exactly? Where are my doom and gloom assumptions? If you don't like what I'm saying that's one thing, but nothing I've said has been pulled out of thin air. It's all based on past experience with the product.

The only current variable are the add-ons and KE already says that they are "working on it"...

In the past they have been pretty good with these promises.

Like they were with the GMax plugin?

In the same post you're saying you don't know specifics and I'm making assumptions then turn around and say there's only one current variable. At least make your arguments consistent.

So you wouldn't then fly RC aircraft either as they are likely to crash sooner or later?

Oh the irony of that statement! Isn't that why people buy a sim in the first place? I didn't get into r/c for about 3 years and bought G2 and G3 instead and one of my main reasons for putting off flying the real thing was that the real aircraft don't have a reset button.

No, unlike others at least you argue with some logic no matter how misplaced.
I contend that these arguements are based upon a PERCEPTION...

Now this has moved on from criticism or differing opinion and sunk into a personal attack hence my point by point refutation. Frankly I expected better from you. Furthermore I've just shown above that your arguments are full of logical inconsistencies. Pot. Kettle. Black.

Mine never does... even on three different machines, since one of the G3 updates this has been the case.

I assume you're talking about field editor crashes. Good for you. I've reinstalled several times as I've upgraded machines. Unlike you I at least try to follow the EULA (even though I don't consider it reasonable) and don't install on multiple machines at the same time, but I digress. It may be that I have different install media which KE have not offered to replace. (They instead asked me to try yet another reinstall). Thanks for once again demonstrating that horrible dismissive attitude summarised by "I'm alright you must be doing something wrong" though.

A complete re-install may cure this...

It didn't the first 3 times. It's unlikely to magically do it now. Either way I'm not wasting my time doing it.

Yup, seen this... gone with the latest release of G3.5.

AFTER I did a "complete refresh" of the installation...

I guess someone "listened" because KE noted it in one of the update notes.

I upgraded laptops not too long ago. I've done complete reinstall after complete reinstall. This advice makes you sound like you're reciting a tech solutions hotline script for a low end computer manufacturer. Just add a thick accent and you'd be spot on.

KE stated that they were going to use GMAX for the editor as many other games did too.

Autodesk screwed us on this, not KE.

Autodesk did not promise the editor. KE did repeatedly even though they hadn't negotiated a contract with Autodesk. For a company that refuses to divulge information about upcoming releases that was one royal mistake. If you want logical consistency you can't have it both ways, and your defense of KE goes too far.

It seems that at least some of the things you are concerned about have long been covered, and that you may have missed that this is the case.

I didn't miss it. I just found the response to be inadequate.

What makes KE stick around, is being able to pay their employees salaries while making a profit.

...which won't continue to happen if they develop a reputation for being less than fair with customers in exchange for short term profitability.

As with game programs, anyone shopping for software is going to be swayed FIRST by the visuals, and NEXT by the physics.

True for the general market, but not for "anyone". Some people use this as a game. Others a real learning tool. One size does not fit all, and that's the key thing that you're missing. People use the sim differently to how you would, which is different from how I would. You can make some generalizations but saying "anyone shopping for software" is going too far.

You don't want to purchase an RC sim today that looks like MS Flight Simulator 3.0 do you?

You'd buy something else first...

Funnily enough there's a sim called X-plane, which is profitable and this is because it models physics better than FS2004 did (and arguably better than FSX). It's probably 2-3 generations behind the MS sim for eyecandy. (Unfortunately I had huge problems with the demo so I'm not a big fan of it personally, but I digress). It may not be the top sim, but it's not backed by a huge mutlinational corporation either. Until recent versions all coding had been done by one individual. It has some real advantages - physics modeling is based on the geometry of the object you create rather than table/parameter driven values and as a result you can design and test airfoils (with limited accuracy of course, we're not talking about a replacement for a supercomputer). Unfortunately there are real disadvantages to this approach in terms of creativity, and if the physics is wrong you have to chagne the physical representation of the plane to counter. People do things differently. Diversity is a good thing.

 

[Sammy Yousef]

Backward compatibility and new products

For goodness sake! If some of you are happy to have things break with each new version, that's fine, but some of us are not okay with that. If I write a document this year I expect to be able to open it in 10 years with an up to date machine. If I take a picture, I expect to be able to view it in 10 years. If I build a virtual model or a virtual field why should I expect it to have a lifespan of maybe 2 years? If that's the case it isn't worth the week or two of spare time that it takes me to create it.

Even those of you that think breaking back compatibility is okay, if all your software changed every 2 years you'd get nothing done, and you'd be unable to even keep records. That back compatibility isn't important has to be one of the most ridiculous arguments I've ever heard. Many companies have made the mistake of coming out with a brand new product that breaks back compatibility and have sunk as a result.

It isn't an accident that MS flight sim became the most popular sim. Minor tweaks kept your aircraft flying and the user community kept creating and tweaking their creations. Many would have given up if they had to do it all again from scratch 2 years later. Likewise it's not an accident that G3 rose in popularity so quickly. Allowing users to install G2 addon packs was a master stroke. It's no accident that windows is popular either - many if not most programs written 10 years ago work fine. The latest version of MS Word I'm told reads MS Word 95 documents a decade old.

Another thing. If the software is complex, a complete redesign will require time to mature, so that all the bugs are smoothed out. KE did an almost complete redesign moving from G2 to G3. A small software house can't afford to redesign a whole code base from scratch every 2-3 years!!! You'd end up with a terrificly buggy mess. As a software developer I can tell you that the only sensible time to do a complete re-write is when the design of your product can no longer be extended to add the functionality you wish to provide. It's easier to work with what you have instead of doing the same thing all over again.

Unfortunately it's also easier to ignore back compatibility (which restricts what you can and can't do, as it forces you to deal with older data formats which is more work in both writing and testing). However if you do that you're throwing away everyone else's hard work to save yourself some effort. To those of you that really want a very different sim every few years, go buy a different product altogether and leave the rest of us with lasting virtual creations.

 

[cfossa]

One excellent point made a few posts back ... once your G3 controller breaks (and many have) you will likely be forced to upgrade to G4. I can't imagine they will repair or replace G3 controllers mre than 6-12 months after G4 release.

Perhaps G4 controller will run G3?

I bought G3 a long time ago and have gotten my money's worth. The only real concern I have with G4 is that the new planes and features don't seem worth the price of a full upgrade. G3 was a huge improvement in both the moving environment and the 3D flying capability. I just don't see that level of improvement from G3 to G4. Maybe I'd feel different if I was flying real float planes.

Carl

 

[MadMonkey]

Ever think of shutting up now and then?

My thoughts:

It's your choice whether you buy G3 in the first place.

If I bought it right now and discovered tomorrow that G4 is coming out, I might be a little annoyed, but it's my fault for not keeping up with the times.

Do I have to buy G4 RIGHT NOW?

No. Again, it's my choice whether to get it or not. Sure, there's improvements. But do I need the latest and greatest the moment it comes out?

No.

Do I need to demand a rebate since I've bought a previous version of the sim?

No.

Do I demand a rebate when I buy a new version of Microsoft's Flight Simulator, like I do every year? (or every release, whichever).

No.

Am I worried about support for G3 in the future?

No, all I need is my controller to continue working... once it fails, I can either buy another from a user who has G4, or use a G2 controller with a crack ( ), or simply buy G4...

There's a lot of options.

There's no reason for anyone to be whining or moaning. We're the consumers; they have no requirement to serve us or to cater to our every desire, although it's usually in their best interests.

So those of you who are whining about wanting a rebate... just hush.

Those of you who are whining about the add-on planes not working... I can understand where you're coming from since I have several of the packages myself.

However, I'll still have G3 to use them. And since there's supposedly no major physics improvements, there's not going to be much difference using them with G3 instead of G4.

BUT.

Why worry about it anyway? Many, many other programs are the same way with backward compatibility; you can't expect them to all work together.

Now, to avoid having to eat my own words with the picture I posted, I'll now be quiet

 

[Sammy Yousef]

Ever think of shutting up now and then?

Would an admin please remove this hateful offensive rubbish. The link at the very least and references to the disabled.

I suppose you think you're being clever, but the joke is weak and the content is offensive. I don't know how old you are, but I hope you're not out of highschool yet with that level of maturity.

I won't quote the link to the picture. Have you ever thought for a second that there may be people here who have friends or family that are disabled in some way? Way to make friends and influence people. I bow to your wisdom and maturity.

Do you expect anyone but children to take you seriously when you follow an insult to anyone who choses to argue on the internet with, wait for it....your addition to the argument. (The only way to avoid "eating your words" as you put it would be not to add to the argument at all).

As to the rest of your thoughts, I've already countered them above. If you can't be bothered reading or have trouble comprehending, that's not a queue for me to repeat what I've said. Make no mistake you've contributed nothing to the debate.

 

[HX3D014]

Ever think of shutting up now and then?

My thoughts:

It's your choice whether you buy G3 in the first place.

If I bought it right now and discovered tomorrow that G4 is coming out, I might be a little annoyed, but it's my fault for not keeping up with the times.

Do I have to buy G4 RIGHT NOW?

No. Again, it's my choice whether to get it or not. Sure, there's improvements. But do I need the latest and greatest the moment it comes out?

No.

Do I need to demand a rebate since I've bought a previous version of the sim?

No.

Do I demand a rebate when I buy a new version of Microsoft's Flight Simulator, like I do every year? (or every release, whichever).

No.

Am I worried about support for G3 in the future?

No, all I need is my controller to continue working... once it fails, I can either buy another from a user who has G4, or use a G2 controller with a crack ( ), or simply buy G4...

There's a lot of options.

There's no reason for anyone to be whining or moaning. We're the consumers; they have no requirement to serve us or to cater to our every desire, although it's usually in their best interests.

So those of you who are whining about wanting a rebate... just hush.

Those of you who are whining about the add-on planes not working... I can understand where you're coming from since I have several of the packages myself.

However, I'll still have G3 to use them. And since there's supposedly no major physics improvements, there's not going to be much difference using them with G3 instead of G4.

BUT.

Why worry about it anyway? Many, many other programs are the same way with backward compatibility; you can't expect them to all work together.

Now, to avoid having to eat my own words with the picture I posted, I'll now be quiet

Steady Eddy!
Sammy . I know you know what this means . But still the steady applies to you.

PS. Hope you had a good honeymoon. I know I did. and now I know what Honey moon means. from now on i kiss the honey moon

Now!

What's this Thread about.

The cost.

how much did it cost KE to go and Do the changes we wanted!


I hope they stay A-Float
all points are Valid. but with so many angels. how can you spread shot them all ?

 

[jeffpn]

No, the point about keeping up with the times is not valid. KE was extremely quiet about the release of G4. I think it took everyone by surprise. How many computers came with a Vista upgrade certificate because Vista wouldn't be available for a couple of months?

 

[Johndou]

...
KE was extremely quiet about the release of G4. I think it took everyone by surprise.
...

Actually what's even worse is that KnifeEdge and Tower are the only one's who have acknowledged the existance of G4. Neither GP nor RF have any mention of G4 on their websites, a full two weeks after it's annoncement here! What about all of the Hobby shops out there right now selling G3 for $200.00 knowing full well that they're selling an out dated product?

If anything, KE and Tower are the only ones being open and up front about the release of G4 -

 

[MadMonkey]

Would an admin please remove this hateful offensive rubbish. The link at the very least and references to the disabled.

I suppose you think you're being clever, but the joke is weak and the content is offensive. I don't know how old you are, but I hope you're not out of highschool yet with that level of maturity.

I won't quote the link to the picture. Have you ever thought for a second that there may be people here who have friends or family that are disabled in some way? Way to make friends and influence people. I bow to your wisdom and maturity.

Do you expect anyone but children to take you seriously when you follow an insult to anyone who choses to argue on the internet with, wait for it....your addition to the argument. (The only way to avoid "eating your words" as you put it would be not to add to the argument at all).

As to the rest of your thoughts, I've already countered them above. If you can't be bothered reading or have trouble comprehending, that's not a queue for me to repeat what I've said. Make no mistake you've contributed nothing to the debate.

See above, my fellow RC'ers...


The Internet is very, very serious business.